Ukraine

[Westsidex]

Again, you’re wrong to lump Putin in with the other leaders. That’s just not fair.

I think it's a sort of political attribute to be a prick.

Westside

[Forceuser]

Dude ,


Watch that Video the Inspector put up an I quoted / replied to .

Watch the Video : all should be much clearer once you do and

you won’t be making silly statements

Your opinion on why nations join NATO seems to have changed because of that video

At first you believed that joining NATO was an act of autonomy or "self determination" as you put it
now you seem to think of it as deliberate incentivized NATO expansion

in the video he talks a lot about "NATO expansion" and "peeling" countries away from Russia but the closest he comes to showing it as a deliberate act of expansion
is a quote from the 2008 summit about NATO welcoming Ukraine an Georgia's aspirations to join.

he doesn't mention anything about deliberate incentives made to these countries to join.
in fact he mentions how much more generous the russians offer to join their economy pact instead of the EU (not NATO admittedly) was
and the Georgians and Ukrainian governments still ended up wanting to join NATO

Couple this with the fact that the Ukrainians will have been acutely aware what happened to Georgia and
yet still had aspirations to join

so are these countries being used as pawns by the west with fake promises to advance military hardware closer to Russia?
or do they know the communist regime very very well and know they will never have true freedom and democracy
as so called buffer states
i believe the latter

the only reservation i have is the fact of NATO being a military alliance and not an economic one.
but then again,EU membership was never going to guarantee secure borders

so to summarize,i don't think the blame lies with the west,but with russia and its general outlook

[Westsidex]

Imagine what will happen when the EU starts falling apart? Then we will have trouble right on our doorsteps. I'm not worried cause it's many full moons from now. I'll be dead and fertilising daffodils. There seems to be a common theme for troubles. Unions become, fall apart and then try to become one again, through force.

Westside

[TonyB]

Go see as many escorts as you can because one day you won't be able.

Live for today. We all should.

[Stephanie]

Your opinion on why nations join NATO seems to have changed because of that video

>At first you believed that joining NATO was an act of autonomy or "self determination"

as you put it now you seem to think of it as deliberate incentivized NATO expansion

in the video he talks a lot about "NATO expansion" and "peeling" countries away from Russia but the closest he comes to showing it as a deliberate act of expansion
is a quote from the 2008 summit about NATO welcoming Ukraine an Georgia's aspirations to join.

he doesn't mention anything about deliberate incentives made to these countries to join.
in fact he mentions how much more generous the russians offer to join their economy pact instead of the EU (not NATO admittedly) was
and the Georgians and Ukrainian governments still ended up wanting to join NATO

Couple this with the fact that the Ukrainians will have been acutely aware what happened to Georgia and
yet still had aspirations to join

so are these countries being used as pawns by the west with fake promises to advance military hardware closer to Russia?
or do they know the communist regime very very well and know they will never have true freedom and democracy
as so called buffer states
i believe the latter

the only reservation i have is the fact of NATO being a military alliance and not an economic one.
but then again,EU membership was never going to guarantee secure borders

so to summarize,i don't think the blame lies with the west,but with russia and its general outlook

My opinion and outlook has been tempered with new information on board :

I am mentally flexible enough that if I am faced with New Information , that

New Information may very well color my Opinion going forward .


: I Still believe that for the nations who had Chosen to become NATO members ,

it’s in my eyes is a path of Self Determination .

However , now on Two occasions for the West to be dangling impossible dreams

in front of Nations aching to Grow but have a Bear on their back that the West

is Not prepared to tangle with in order to help out these ( Georgia / Ukraine ) countries ,

…. Well , I’m finding myself finding it Immoral .


Imo it is Not right for Rus to be able to Dictate its neighbors fate !

But at same time I think it is also Wrong for West to give False Hope to those people .


” now you seem to think of it as deliberate incentivized NATO expansion ” — nope ,

did not say that , do not believe that per se as you saying it xx

: ” quote from the 2008 summit about NATO welcoming Ukraine an Georgia's aspirations to join.”—

which I have alluded to / mentioned in my post a couple of times I think xx

: an Invite to EU and to NATO - IS the Incentive ! ! ! That’s what these two countries acted on -

sadly , falsely believing that NATO would be all out to protect them .


: my core beliefs remain the same : a Sovereign Nation shall be able to steer its own boat .

At the same time - early in this thread I already said there Must be a DMZ between two powers :

: ie between Rus and NATO - and horrendously this lot falls to Ukraine .


I am Always ready to learn , and if an Hour+ Academic Lecture broadens my understanding ,

I am grateful xxx

[Stephanie]

Your opinion on why nations join NATO seems to have changed because of that video

At first you believed that joining NATO was an act of autonomy or "self determination" as you put it
now you seem to think of it as deliberate incentivized NATO expansion

in the video he talks a lot about "NATO expansion" and "peeling" countries away from Russia but the closest he comes to showing it as a deliberate act of expansion
is a quote from the 2008 summit about NATO welcoming Ukraine an Georgia's aspirations to join.

he doesn't mention anything about deliberate incentives made to these countries to join.
in fact he mentions how much more generous the russians offer to join their economy pact instead of the EU (not NATO admittedly) was
and the Georgians and Ukrainian governments still ended up wanting to join NATO

Couple this with the fact that the Ukrainians will have been acutely aware what happened to Georgia and
yet still had aspirations to join << — people forget , they think it won’t happen to them , and NATO membership

is the ( was the ) Holy Grail for Ukraine’s long term independence and military security .

>>so are these countries being used as pawns by the west with fake promises to advance military hardware closer to Russia?
or do they know the communist regime very very well and know they will never have true freedom and democracy
as so called buffer states
i believe the latter

the only reservation i have is the fact of NATO being a military alliance and not an economic one.
but then again,EU membership was never going to guarantee secure borders

so to summarize,i don't think the blame lies with the west,but with russia and its general outlook

Other than emotional outbursts I Try not play blame-game : would hope to strive for Solutions .

To That end we Need to understand the underlying mechanism of each side : aims , goals , methods .

I think Putin should be flayed and hung .

There is NO excuse for what he’s doing !!

In my earlier post I merely pointed out that even though he is a lying mofo ,

he’s actually doing Exactly what he said he Would do - 8 years ago - , unless the West

backed up from encouraging Ukraine from ‘democratizing’ itself : ie. Orange Revolution etc. xx


US / NATO had forgotten the Rus War Playbook . Rus acting as it is Written in their Strategic annals .

!! And !! They have learned an awful lot from the US military engagements of the last decades in

different theaters :: they’re copying US military strategy — which the Ukrainians do not know - yet x

[Forceuser]

My opinion and outlook has been tempered with new information on board :

I am mentally flexible enough that if I am faced with New Information , that

New Information may very well color my Opinion going forward .


: I Still believe that for the nations who had Chosen to become NATO members ,

it’s in my eyes is a path of Self Determination .

However , now on Two occasions for the West to be dangling impossible dreams

in front of Nations aching to Grow but have a Bear on their back that the West

is Not prepared to tangle with in order to help out these ( Georgia / Ukraine ) countries ,

…. Well , I’m finding myself finding it Immoral .


Imo it is Not right for Rus to be able to Dictate its neighbors fate !

But at same time I think it is also Wrong for West to give False Hope to those people .


” now you seem to think of it as deliberate incentivized NATO expansion ” — nope ,

did not say that , do not believe that per se as you saying it xx

: ” quote from the 2008 summit about NATO welcoming Ukraine an Georgia's aspirations to join.”—

which I have alluded to / mentioned in my post a couple of times I think xx

: an Invite to EU and to NATO - IS the Incentive ! ! ! That’s what these two countries acted on -

sadly , falsely believing that NATO would be all out to protect them .


: my core beliefs remain the same : a Sovereign Nation shall be able to steer its own boat .

At the same time - early in this thread I already said there Must be a DMZ between two powers :

: ie between Rus and NATO - and horrendously this lot falls to Ukraine .


I am Always ready to learn , and if an Hour+ Academic Lecture broadens my understanding ,

I am grateful xxx

i personally can't see how these two beliefs can co-exist without being a contradiction
how can we say to nations that we believe that they are entitled to self determination and also
"except you Ukraine,you have to take one for the team"
that will never sit right with me

as for the west dangling impossible dreams or inviting them to join NATO,what were the process of
events,were they invited or did they request first? i don't actually know the answer to this question but
i think its an important factor before blaming the west as much as russia for this crisis
if its the latter then to say no to them would have been against all supposed western values.
if its the former then i will concede more of the blame to NATO
but even then,we also have to ask ourselves why Ukraine feels like they need NATO's protection
is russia interfering with its governing more than we know?

and yes,while western powers haven't engaged in direct combat with russia,its not done nothing either
some people (not you) like to scoff at sanctions,but they do hurt over time
you can't maintain a huge modern army for long if your economy is in the toilet

[WeeJimmy]

Dude ,


Watch that Video the Inspector put up an I quoted / replied to .

Watch the Video : all should be much clearer once you do and

you won’t be making silly statements - maybe


/ Wisconsin (?) sent a Million rounds of ammunition ;

……

The Polish govt offered up All the Mig29s in their air force - gratis ! -

for them to be delivered and made available to Ukraine ���� .

The NATO Cannot Do that !

Their Big idea / well intended - they’d send their MiGs to US base in Germany ,

and from There they be transferred to Ukraine . : the NATO Cannot Do that without

sparking much much more serious Rus engagement !

: also - Poland sorta passing the buck :: Rus will be mad w US , not with Them



In the First place : Poland wasn’t going to hand over the planes directly ( even though

They are an Article V part of NATO ) is because They are afraid of Rus infiltration ,

agitators and incendiary provocation, and getting drawn into a face-off same as Donbas - in Poland .

Polish not dumb - this was a well meaning idea - they consulted Nobody on it ;

It is simply not tenable .

And Yes , it was Biden who categorically said NO , we will not Do that - possibly saving Europe

from Russian wrath .

what silly in my statement, when did the Americans ever tell the truth, they made up stories in the past to create unnecessary wars and a million rounds of ammunition won't protect the skies and its the skies that they need the help with, its true and Biden is just a useless president even before this and its true that Nato is not doing enough,
Britain is actually doing more and that surprises me and Putin now more pissed off with Boris and us Brits than anyone else and thats all very risky as no one know what Putin is really thinking

[Stephanie]

what silly in my statement, when did the Americans ever tell the truth, they made up stories in the past to create unnecessary wars and a million rounds of ammunition won't

protect the skies and its the skies that they need the help with, its true and Biden is just a useless president

even before this and its true that Nato is not doing enough,


Britain is actually doing more and that surprises me and Putin now more pissed off with Boris and us Brits than anyone else

Troll ~~ or need to get better informed

[WeeJimmy]

Troll ~~ or need to get better informed

maybe answer why you think i'm wrong then, its just typical of you