Israeli Intelligence should be under scrutiny as to : did They pass on the intelligence up the ladder ?Originally Posted by AmorInfinito8
: if they did Not , on whose orders ?
and if so :: on Whose Orders did the armed forces not execute preventative measures in face of certain looming attack ?
I do what I want. I cannot do otherwise.
Intelligence is a very murky world. The Brits had the Provos riddled with touts at the highest levels, Denis Donaldson, Stakeknife and even apparently Martin McGuinness, all talking to British Intelligence. But attacks still happened - Omagh, Enniskillen, Judge Gibson & his wife, Newry RUC station etc, etc, etc. But sometimes the Intelligence system worked well, eg The execution of 8 provo terrorists in Loughall. It's not an exact science. Mistakes happen too. Read Eamon Collins book about his time as a Provo (and informer) and how his mistake lead to an innocent man being shot dead. I'm guessing there is lots intel coming in all the time from Gaza but perhaps nobody could believe such a shocking mass attack on civilians would actually happen. It's a hard lesson learned.
Established Member
Certified E-I Addict
To be fair, in their long history of using their power to interfere in foreign conflicts, they have been on the right side of things more often than not.
It is hard to argue that they helped significantly in bringing Northern Ireland to a much better place, and as Stephanie reminds us, the closest that Israel.and Palestine ever came to a workable peace agreement was in US-led talks.
I happen to think that they have been on the right side in Ukraine. Most seem to agree, but not all.
Overall, though, they have been villains more often than not with regard to Israel. International efforts to sanction Israel for countless war crimes over decades have consistently been blocked by the US.
I am totally disgusted by Hamas actions, but the reaction of many people is to say "We stand with Israel". Better to say "We stand against Hamas", because Israel's hands are far from clean.
AmorInfinito8 (13-10-23), IAmLIAm (13-10-23), Rooney2808 (13-10-23),Stephanie (13-10-23)
Israel has no good options.
Doing nothing is hardly an option.
You can "bomb the bastards" with either warplanes or missiles but this is indiscriminate. [Although the Americans and NATO have often done this]
It is impossible to separate the civilians from the terrorists because the terrorists are civilians. And in some cases, not very old civilians.
A ground invasion involves risk. America may literally have Israel's back so they may invade in force without too much worry about an attack from somewhere else but this is "fighting in built up areas" that is known to be very difficult because you cannot effectively use mechanised support like amour. And even if you are successful, at some stage you withdraw and the terrorists regroup. Israel has "destroyed" various terrorist groups multiple times and they simply regroup and come back.
Established Member
Certified E-I Addict
I agree with Stephanie and others that it is unlikely that Israel knew nothing of these attacks in advance, and that there may have been a plan to use them as a basis for "retaliation". Israel's retaliation tend to be far deadlier than the actions they retaliate against.
I don't think they would have allowed it though if they understood the scale. Perhaps they were not surprised by the action, but hugely underestimated its severity?
As usual, their PR machine is framing the situation in their terms, calling it a war in order to justify what now looks like an inevitable land grab.
Elsewhere in the world, governments find combating terrorism very challenging, because international laws do not allow them to put civilian life at risk. Israel do not play by those rules, and never will so long as other nations accept their methods.
Established Member
Certified E-I Addict
Israel seem to have a free pass to do as they wish, it's hard to fathom.
IAmLIAm (13-10-23)
Intelligence is a murky world. Intelligence operatives are often better at covering their backs and protecting their jobs than providing useful information.
After 9/11 the American Agencies tried to claim they had provided information that should have prevented the attacks, but it was so vague as to be useless.
I have tip that a dark-coloured horse will win a race. I don't know the horse's name, nor the race, nor the time of the race. But that is my back covered and my reputation and my job as a pundit secure. The next time a dark-coloured horse wins a race, I will claim I warned you and you should have put money on it.
It's called "AMERICA"
It is "America" but it is more than that.
Israel's neighbours may not like Israel and in the past may have helped various groups like HAMAS but HAMAS and the like are destabilising the area and they are extremists nobody wants.
The attitude of Egypt, Jordan and most other countries in the Middle-East is that the least of all possible evils is to have some sort of normal relations with Israel.
Egypt has a border with Gaza and they effectively restrict it. They do not want people from there in their country.
Israel has a bloody good option : stop the land grab by way of growing number of illegal settlements ,
and stop the inhumane treatment of its neighbor : keeping a people in a walled off prison where All
goods and food is at the ‘mercy’ of Israel ?
You / and I would rebel at such hopeless existence too !
Hamas exists because the population suffers .
/ I hurry to add I do Not condone the violence that has been committed by Hamas !
In this particular moment - you are right : there are hardly any palatable solutions .
But imo by ordering over a Million ppl to shift to the South of Gaza and increasing
the collective human suffering they will 1 . make even the mildest Palestinian into an enemy ;
2 . once Palestinians are pushed south , out of northern Gaza : that territory likely will Not
be returned to the Palestinian people .
The evacuation order states for All to leave , and Not return until an Order by Israel is issued that
they - the indigenous Palestinian people - may return .
Even if they may be allowed : return to What ? Bombed out cities ?
Imo this looking like a land grab under the guise of mere retaliatory campaign .
Barney Rubble (13-10-23), Rooney2808 (13-10-23)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote