Conclusion of Meeting with Minister

[The Libertarian]

of the 2 main diverse camps involved in promoting the madness Fitzgerald's view is probably closer to the rad fem side which is actually not quite as insane as the religious loon side of the house e.g. apparently Ruhama's JOC Commission was the basis for the JOC recommendations which are completely totally off the wall by any standard of sanity and largely unconstitutional!
So an appalling horrific immoral law on the way, but perhaps not at religious loons level!

[The Libertarian]

Many politicans in this country are former teachers and will ofren adopt an attitude asif they are speaking to a class of naugty 4 ŕ year olds when dealing with the public(esp. if they feel superior to those people or sense they have no real power)There are no votes for Fitzgerald or any other Irish politician in supporting sex workers and if they did they would have the moral majority brigade on thier heads.Indeed I would expect Fitzgerald's private views will be the same as her public views(she is rather elderly and her views will have been formed in an Ireland very different from the present.In other words she is conservative,a lot of Irish society is still deeply conservative, escorting will never e legalised in this country in the foreseeable future and the safety and other concerns of escorts themselves will be given scant attention.The Irish attitude is often to sweep things under the carpet and if any consideration is given to the business it is to see all clients as some form of abuser and to see all escorts as "fallen/forced" women needing to be rescued/rehabilitated.

There's actually an unbelievable level of disconnect between our political masters and ordinary people on almost every issue! In fact in the Western World historically, it would probably be hard to find a bigger gap, except maybe France under the Late King Louis!

[dob]

in fairness its not really a feminist doctrine. Ask 100 women who are not involved in prostitution: Are you Pro Prostitution or Against Prostitution? The majority will side on against. The swedish model is just a means to an end. It is the method by which they minimize it further

I think it widely viewed in society that prostitution is "a bad thing". However the swedish feminists came up with the "punish the punter" model, as the women involved were victims of voilence and inequality. From this springs much of the sophistry used by TORL and their ilk to justify their campaign, ie the use of false and misleading data, the exaggerated witness of "rescued" sex workers and the co-opting of well meaning but uninformed groups and indivuals.
A number of comments here are using the "Catholic" thing. Personally I think this is largely irrelevant to this discussion. This whole thing was developed by non religious, even antireligious people in the first place. You will find the more Prodestant elements much more vigorous in this debate world wide.

[The Libertarian]

Fitzgerald is a social worker by trade and her husband is a psychiatrist and although she is from a very privileged background, it's really disappointing that she is not showing more humanity on this issue which surely her training and real world work would indicate she should have!

[liffey]

A number of comments here are using the "Catholic" thing. Personally I think this is largely irrelevant to this discussion. This whole thing was developed by non religious, even antireligious people in the first place. You will find the more Prodestant elements much more vigorous in this debate world wide.

Actually I think the "Catholic" issue is relevant. I agree with your last sentence, there's a definite whiff of Calvinism about the Nordic approach, but add in the Catholic anti-sex guilt we all had beaten into us and the residual power and wealth of the Church, and it's a heady brew.

BTW, about throwing sex workers under the bus: the Swedish radfems are quite open about the fact that some sex workers have been & will be killed or injured along the way. They maintain that the benefits to the wider society outweigh the livelihoods and even lives of the few. It's the Swedish Way.

So I was thinking today... We need a soundbite to counter the TORL propaganda. How about "What these people want to do is like banning everyone from driving because a few people drive while drunk". It's not entirely accurate, but it gets the point across.

[Meursault]

I think it widely viewed in society that prostitution is "a bad thing". However the swedish feminists came up with the "punish the punter" model, as the women involved were victims of voilence and inequality. From this springs much of the sophistry used by TORL and their ilk to justify their campaign, ie the use of false and misleading data, the exaggerated witness of "rescued" sex workers and the co-opting of well meaning but uninformed groups and indivuals.
A number of comments here are using the "Catholic" thing. Personally I think this is largely irrelevant to this discussion. This whole thing was developed by non religious, even antireligious people in the first place. You will find the more Prodestant elements much more vigorous in this debate world wide.

ok if you have the feminists on one side and the sex workers on the other, where do the majority of women who are not neither side, side with? They will lean towards the feminists for like you say "prostitution is bad; marriage is good etc."

My point is that the swedish model is just a means to an end and the reason the justice minister will adopt that model is because the majority wish to see it gone and hence will support it. My point being and people may criticize me for this, is that is the majority of women who are almost covertly forcing this issue. The feminists are not even a minority. You could pack them all into a hotel foyer. So come voting time they mean nothing. Hence it is the majority of women and to a less extend men who force this through.

Hypothetically if they decided to adopt the german model, i can guarantee there would be uproar. People on liveline, writing to papers "im not voting for FG again etc."

When it comes to democracy the majority dictates most of the time ( someone may point out the banks and fair enough)

i remember during limerick when the gangsters were knocking seven cans out of each other (2007ish) the public did not care when they were killing each other. It was only when they targeted innocent hard working people that the public took to the street and low and behold new criminal legislation was brought in to deal with the gangs

escorts should try and target the majority if they wish to see change. start writing letters to the papers, TV inteviews etc. its futile targeting the justice minister if she is under duress of the public. change the opinions of the public and you will change the opinions of the minister. period

[Catriona]

The Germans like to register everything, if possible. It's the German worldview. For latest developments in German look at: http://researchprojectgermany.wordpress.com/

Anyway, well done.

I know, I started working in Germany. But when you register in Germany, you just register for tax purposes as self-employed but as something other than a sex worker such as a hostess or promoter. But the prostitution laws differ from federal state to federal state and also cities. In Munich you have to register with the local police when you work there - what other job do you have register with the police? I know Matthias personally who runs the site.

I hate the set-up in Germany and actually prefer it here tbh. I feel like I have a sense of privacy here rather than running from the cops trying to make sure I have the exact papers and then being criminalised if I don't. We have to emphasise New Zealand.

Actually I think the "Catholic" issue is relevant. I agree with your last sentence, there's a definite whiff of Calvinism about the Nordic approach, but add in the Catholic anti-sex guilt we all had beaten into us and the residual power and wealth of the Church, and it's a heady brew.

BTW, about throwing sex workers under the bus: the Swedish radfems are quite open about the fact that some sex workers have been & will be killed or injured along the way. They maintain that the benefits to the wider society outweigh the livelihoods and even lives of the few. It's the Swedish Way.

So I was thinking today... We need a soundbite to counter the TORL propaganda. How about "What these people want to do is like banning everyone from driving because a few people drive while drunk". It's not entirely accurate, but it gets the point across.

pretty much describes it!

Regarding media response - we sent out a press release last night. And have yet to hear a response unfortunately :-/

[dob]

I know, I started working in Germany. But when you register in Germany, you just register for tax purposes as self-employed but as something other than a sex worker such as a hostess or promoter. But the prostitution laws differ from federal state to federal state and also cities. In Munich you have to register with the local police when you work there - what other job do you have register with the police? I know Matthias personally who runs the site.

I hate the set-up in Germany and actually prefer it here tbh. I feel like I have a sense of privacy here rather than running from the cops trying to make sure I have the exact papers and then being criminalised if I don't. We have to emphasise New Zealand.



pretty much describes it!

Regarding media response - we sent out a press release last night. And have yet to heaMr a response unfortunately :-/

Could you post that press release here Catriona? The media seem to have no problem publish any type of codswollop Denise Charlton emits. Anything published on thejournal.ie from Denise receives generally negative (to her position) reaction

[Catriona]

Could you post that press release here Catriona? The media seem to have no problem publish any type of codswollop Denise Charlton emits. Anything published on thejournal.ie from Denise receives generally negative (to her position) reaction

Here ya go. It was sent from the Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland:

Sex Workers Alliance Ireland met with Minister Frances Fitzgerald to discuss the dangers of the Swedish Model and to look at evidence-based policy, which she agreed to do. The Swedish Model has endangered sex workers where it has been implemented, a fact that both the French Senate and the UK parliament have recognised, the latter rejecting a clause, which would have criminalised the purchase of sex in a bill last week.


Frances Fitzgerald listened to voices of sex workers. Sex workers do not support the model in Sweden, nor the legalisation model in Holland or Germany, but look towards the New Zealand model of decriminalisation, which takes a human rights approach.


Ends

[Stephanie]

Here ya go. It was sent from the Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland:

Sex Workers Alliance Ireland met with Minister Frances Fitzgerald to discuss the dangers of the Swedish Model and to look at evidence-based policy, which she agreed to do. The Swedish Model has endangered sex workers where it has been implemented, a fact that both the French Senate and the UK parliament have recognised, the latter rejecting a clause, which would have criminalised the purchase of sex in a bill last week.


Frances Fitzgerald listened to voices of sex workers. Sex workers do not support the model in Sweden, nor the legalisation model in Holland or Germany, but look towards the New Zealand model of decriminalisation, which takes a human rights approach.


Ends

Did she ??

From your previous posts I was under the impression that she had refused to listen to you and what you guys had to say.

To put out such a press release is misleading imo. It makes it appear as if F. F. was a reasonable person who has listened to

and weighed the differing opinions , those including the opinions of active sex workers.

But that is not so , is it ?

Would have it not been possible to put forth a more accurate description of the events ? xx





And here , kudos to you for having taken the time and care to attend , for being a strong and articulate person , for your

bravery and passion xxx