Abortion in ireland.

[Doozer]

Who was getting personal, you were putting forward an argument and I was responding to it in kind.

¨The physical danger that the mother wants to inflict on herself can be stopped so no harm comes to both¨
How exactly do you propose to do this, ? Put the woman under 24 hour care? And what about after the birth?

How are non pregnacy related suicides dealt with?
Couselling etc

[justfrank44]

How are non pregnacy related suicides dealt with?
Couselling etc

And they are all effective in stopping suicide? It is one thing playing devils advocate, but these are very simplistic arguments. No two cases are the same, no two people are the same.

[warmcome]

Thousands of Irish women have abortions every year. Abroad.

that's right. Ryanair could do a package deal...

[Curvaceous Kate]

Prepare for a shit storm
Emotive topic where both sides think they are right and will belittle the opposition

Where have we seen that before?

Back to the topic, it is logical to use contraception, but as a Country it is or has been frowned upon to use contraception, so it's almost like a 'double guilt' to use it and be having sex out of marriage. Then there is the fact that the guys are not all used to using condoms and the little fella doesn't always appreciate it, so a man can be very convincing for you not to use it and if you think the chap cares about you (ie not an Escort situation) then she may trust him and believe his porky pies to get his own way, that he will not let her fall pregnant.

Then there are the ones that never believe it will happen to them and just take a chance or they get drunk and do it on impulse etc etc. Then there are the ones who get pregnant, because they think it will make them happier and don't think of the big picture.

In short, people don't always act upon logic, but are led by emotions. That is what makes us human.

[Curvaceous Kate]

I can agree with you there that it would be very traumatic for a raped mother to be reminded of her ordeal by looking at the child. She could give it up for adoption though. I then also agree that it would be unfair for the woman to carry an unwanted child full term, for nine months unwanted.

But I also see it as allowing a potential person the chance to become an actual person
This issue is never just going to be a black and white one


****Disclaimer I am having a debate and do not mean to cause any offence to anyone reading my statements********

Just playing devils advocate here, but we are to a point genetically pre-disposed to carry our parents traits. For instance my son has a lot of his Father's traits, which were not learnt by observation, but inherited genetically. He has had very little contact with his Dad since he was 3, so he was too young to have picked them up any other way.

Now, if you have a child via rape. How do you know that child isn't going to grow up to have the same disregard for life as his Father? Not only does the lady have to carry the child for 9 months, totally changing the course of her life and her prospects, but then the child may grow up to follow in it's Fathers footsteps.

Another example of this. I had a friend at Primary school who was adopted to very strict Catholic God fearing parents. she was brought up with an iron rod. At the age of 16 she ran away from home and got pregnant. She repeated the cycle exactly to her biological Mother and the child was also adopted.

Abortions should always be the last resort, but sometimes it is the best solution.

Mentally ill people do get pregnant and often mental illness also runs in the family.

Personally I don't think I could have ever had an abortion and I have taken all precautions necessary during my life to ensure that would never be a situation I was in, but that isn't always possible and some times people are led on to believe they are in a secure relationship when they are not and the Dad disappears when they are needed most and believe me, it's not easy bringing up a child by yourself.

There are also women that don't want children and get pregnant at the drop of a hat even with contraception. I know of someone who wanted to have an op, so she couldn't have children and they wouldn't let her have it, because she was under 35 years of age.

I also think that men who have more than 2 children outside of a relationship should consider having the snip. How many men out there have several children that they have nothing to do with, due to one night stands or casual flings? Is that fair on the children?

[justfrank44]

I had the snip a few years after our second child was born, better to be safe than sorry, but even that is not 100% effective.

[Sancho Panza]

I have no moral objection to first or second trimester abortions. In my opinion, such abortions are not murders because foetuses are not persons. A person - whether it is an infant, a child, or an adult - can feel pain and think. A foetus cannot do either.

Human life certainly begins at conception; it is foolish of pro-life campaigners to argue otherwise. However, scientists have determined that the structures necessary for higher brain functioning and pain perception do not develop until at least the 24th week of pregnancy. Indeed, it is very likely that the foetus does not "wake up" or become conscious until birth. Thus, I find it hard to believe that a first or second-trimester foetus is a human being with the same rights as an infant, a child, or an adult.

If you believe that humans are ensouled at conception, then you will most likely have a problem with any kind of abortion. Indeed, some pro-life advocates oppose the morning-after pill because of its potential to inhibit implantation (though recent research suggests it does not). Even if I believed in souls though, I would find it hard to believe that a fertilised egg has one.

[Curvaceous Kate]

I had the snip a few years after our second child was born, better to be safe than sorry, but even that is not 100% effective.

True, I have heard of people having babies after and thinking the partner had an affair.

I watched the midwives series when it was on recently and one of the ladies was upset that she was pregnant again, as she already had several children and they had no money or space and she couldn't see how they would cope with yet another child. She ended up paying someone to do it, as it was not allowed in those days and nearly died due to them using unclean objects to carry out the abortion. Then there would have been several children without a Mum.

I can't imagine how hard it must be to be with someone you love, but be scared to have sex with them in case you have another baby, because your religion or the state don't agree with contraception and then when you do get pregnant, they don't agree with termination. It's kind of a catch 22 situation. I'm glad life is not like that any more.

I do think that life should be valued, but as one in 5 pregnancies are naturally miscarried in the first 12 weeks, it is not totally callous to have an abortion within this time frame. After that I start to feel less comfortable, especially now they are able to save babies at around the 20 week stage, so the time frame should be reconsidered in my opinion.