Eurozone Fucked

[Lincoln]

Thank you. A nice summing up is what was needed. IMO, no country had any business going into a united currency without some form of federal taxation system. When we gave up the punt (the monetary one... :P ) we looked to the economic weight of Europe to help us in our financial dealings. Now, we have to live with the consequences.

I personally have no problem with a European wide taxation system, if the benefits of such a system are europe wide. The chances of such a thing happening within the next 20 years (at least) are slim. Surrendering economic sovereignty has been a topic of heated debate, and the choices are stark.

Do we stay in the Euro to the bitter end and inevitably give up our sovereignty, or do we leave and risk almost certain financial ruin?

I don't think there's a third option.

Actually I'm pretty sure that the ultimate goal to which the EU is evolving is the formation of a federal government. In fact I would say that ultimately this is what our civilization on this planet as a whole is evolving towards (a so-called Type 1 Civilization to quote Machio Kaku). So if the Markozy alliance is the first iteration of this then so be it.

I'd rather be in a small cog in a coherent funtioning machine than floating out there unhinged in the ether....

[experiencedguy]

Actually I'm pretty sure that the ultimate goal to which the EU is evolving is the formation of a federal government. In fact I would say that ultimately this is what our civilization on this planet as a whole is evolving towards (a so-called Type 1 Civilization to quote Machio Kaku). So if the Markozy alliance is the first iteration of this then so be it.

I'd rather be in a small cog in a coherent funtioning machine than floating out there unhinged in the ether....

At least Germany know how to run their economy. Of course people will say we were surrendering our differences, but this is the 21st century. The internet has made English its primary functioning language. Information about any historical event is now more easily accessible than ever before. We wont have the same perceived control and self-determination as we once did, but how much self-determination did we ever actually have, considering our countries lack of independence regarding primary resources, and dependence on the UK economy?

I have no problem with a federal Europe. At least then things might actually get done.

[experiencedguy]

Have you ever lived in and paid tax in Germany, I have and they take a fair chunk more out of your monthly wage that being said their health service is a country mile ahead of ours, but its not free as many people believe you still have to pay for certain elements of it and I believe the cost has increased over the last few years its been quite a while since I lived there. If I am honest I would rather be shafted by our own than by the powers of a foreign state after all if we surrender our sovereignty both economic and political what was the point of 1916.

If I had to pay more tax to look after people that genuinely needed looking after, to educate my kids and to protect us at night, I would have absolutely no problem with it. What's the alternative? The government is closing Garda stations in Dublin, closing hospital beds and leaving school posts without people to man them after retirement, all to not have to face touching our bloated social welfare system, or to have to dip their hands into my pocket.

There's something very wrong with that, both economically AND morally.

[Derry lad]

I'm not an economics guru but I would imagine that Ireland's peripheral location in Europe would be a major problem if it decided to opt out of the euro. Air and sea transportation costs would price Ireland out of most markets and leave us alienated to quite a large degree from Europe.
Look at the way Donegal or Fermanagh struggle due to their location relative to the rest of Ireland and the North respectively.
Much as independance sounds great, it might be too great a cost.

Or I could be totally wrong??

[ber]

I'm not an economics guru but I would imagine that Ireland's peripheral location in Europe would be a major problem if it decided to opt out of the euro. Air and sea transportation costs would price Ireland out of most markets and leave us alienated to quite a large degree from Europe.
Look at the way Donegal or Fermanagh struggle due to their location relative to the rest of Ireland and the North respectively.
Much as independance sounds great, it might be too great a cost.

Or I could be totally wrong??

I think u have hit the nail on the head, i fear we would lose our high value sectors eg finiancial services,multinationals etc
and our cost base would not still be low enough to compete with China /India etc in manufacturing so we would fall between
two stools

[carlos marvado]

If I had to pay more tax to look after people that genuinely needed looking after, to educate my kids and to protect us at night, I would have absolutely no problem with it. What's the alternative? The government is closing Garda stations in Dublin, closing hospital beds and leaving school posts without people to man them after retirement, all to not have to face touching our bloated social welfare system, or to have to dip their hands into my pocket.

There's something very wrong with that, both economically AND morally.

I think the overall thrust of the budget was a disaster. While they did nothing to the income tax rates or main social welfare rates, the vat increase and the range of stealth taxes will tend to hit the least well off the most. What this will mean, is that those on large salaries will still be able to afford imported luxuries, foreign holidays, and to frequent escorts who repatriate as much as they can back home, while those who can only afford the essentials, can't afford shopping trips to New York or even Newry, w**k or shag the missus instead of handing over money to women which will end up in Brazil, Romania, China or the UK, will be righly screwed. Those on low incomes buy local......milk, bread, the essentials.......they have no other choice. Support the well off or those who can afford to save capital, and they will thank you by moving their liquid assets outside of the state if they get the jitters about the future of the Eurozone.

[Morpheus]

If a referendum is called on a new treaty and a result of the treaty is that Merkozy get to call a lot more shots in Europe than they already do, will you vote yes or no ?

Personally at this stage I thing Ireland would do well to decouple itself from the Euro so I'd almost definately vote no.

Damned if we do! Damned if we don't!!

I personally think we need the Euro. Can't see us going back to the punt. I think that would sink our country even further.

However, there is no way I want to be ruled by the Germans!! Or the French for that matter!!.

And by the sounds of it - this may well go to a referendum, as Eamonn Gilmore admitted today.

A lecturer economist summed it up pretty well on the RTE news this evening. He said fiscal union with uniformity of taxation etc.. makes sense for the stabilization of the Euro. However, signing a new treaty, which will essential give up our sovereignity, will be disastrous politically for Ireland!!