Bad Clients System by SMS

[Patricia]

What they can't send us an SMS? God knows they make enough money, sending out a few SMSes will save the shit storm that I see coming. Because we know how paranoid Irish punters are about their privacy. Remember the List-gate?

Because we are not clairvoyants, we don't know if you want to check a number but don't have the Internet?

[dave1dave]

I think another usefully thing that could be added to this idea would be to use it in the same way but to tell other escorts if a punter is reliable.
So if an escort uses the sms service she could get a message telling her that it is a punter who will turn up. So no need to think about double booking.
Could give some peace of mind , so to speak.

[Patricia]

Sharkskin,

In answer to your points.

When an escort searches out bad clients system, whether that is done online or by SMS, we don't keep a record of that search, so this data is not being stored by us.

I'm not going to argue data protection law with you, other than to say our bad clients system is run under strict legal guidelines which were developed in the UK specifically for running bad clients systems and we believe it doesn't infringe anyone's data protection rights.

Of course we take steps to ensure the data in our system is accurate, but there is no way we can guarantee it is. Yes, this system is open to abuse, in that escorts could lie to us to put someone in the bad clients system, just like clients can lie to us to give an escort a bad review.

The idea of the guards trying to monitor inbounde SMS searches to find clients visiting escorts is a bit ridiculous I think, there are a hundred ways of identifying clients visiting escorts that would be easier and better than that.

Yes bad clients can change their phone number and yes bad clients could see this post and this might make them change their phone number even quicker, but we are in a situation here where we can either do nothing or try to do something to help, and I think overall this will help. If we keep this "secret" escorts won't know about it.

Pat x

[Patricia]

Hi,

I've removed the first post as some escorts said they felt it wasn't good to publish so much info in public, and I am taking that feedback under consideration currently.

I would still like to hear what clients think of the concerpt of escorts being able to search the bad clients database by SMS.

Do you think this is a good idea or do you have concerns, please tell us?

Pat x

[letme69u]

I really do think that this is setting out to do something good but it seems to be setting up a hostage to fortune.

When a client phones an escort to make a booking, at what point is the client informed that personal data about that client will be taken and passed to a third party? The E-I privacy statement cannot be considered to be sufficient as there is no guarantee that the client has seen the escort's profile on E-I because the escort's mobile number is likely to be rather more widely available.

When a client is refused service because of an automatically generated warning, at what point is the client informed of this decision and given a chance to object. According to dataprotection.ie, Irish law specifically requires this!

When an escort receives a response from E-I that contains any information other than a note to the effect that E-I has no information about the client, at what point does the escort inform the client of the identity of the person who originally provided the information?

These are all requirements under Irish law.

What steps does E-I take to ensure the accuracy of information and to allow people about whom information is held to challenge the accuracy?

It seems to me that any escort who uses the scheme as it is currently set up is breaking Irish data protection laws and that E-I is breaking Irish and UK laws.

I know that clients are very unlikely to complain but the authorities - who would very much like to close E-I and find a way to use the law against escorts might use this as a means to take action.

There have in the past been a number of organisations in the UK that have maintained databases of individuals and their political views with regard to matters such as trade union activities. Those organisations have been closed down by action taken by the UK authorities under UK law and the companies who used their services have been hit by huge fines.

It would be so easy for the Garda use this. Just monitor the E-I SMS facility and phone an escort. Watch the SMS and then go and meet and arrest the escort and then lay a charge regarding a data protection offense.

Now they could release the escort on bail. They get to keep the mobile phone as evidence and one of the bail conditions could easily be that the escort makes no further use of E-I or any similar service until the case comes to court. Deprived of the main source of work the escort will get on the plane home and will most likely not turn up for the subsequent court case and will thus be unable to return in the future for fear of arrest.

Eventually, after a couple of successful prosecutions, they could switch to the UK and go after E-I for accepting data that had been obtained illegally.

In any case, perhaps the idea would not work anyway. You can get a free SIM card every time that you top up your pre-pay phone so an abusive client could easily switch numbers.

The scheme is also open to abuse - "give me a bad review and I'll rat you as an abusive client."

I expect that I'll get flamed for saying this or even for giving ideas to the Garda but I expect that they can work this out by themselves.

i had to trawl to several archive sites to see the first post but yes sharkskin i agree with you, this will put an escort in trouble under both data protection law and probably also misuse of telecomunication law. it will provide the boys in blue with yet another excuse to retain escorts phones and to bring criminal proceedings

[Patricia]

Can I just say we are not proposing anything different to what we already do, other than now escorts can search and report by SMS as well as via the Internet. And we got legal advice on our existing set up prior to adding SMS functionality and confirmed it was all legal in regard to data protection etc.

[kerry lad in town]

i think its a great id if it helps to keep the girls safe. when i ring a escort i have noting to be worry about it like when CCTV started some people ( the ones had most to worry about) dont want it but now look at the lives it saved and people can feel safe in there own homes so if having a data base that will help go for it.

[sharkskin]

When an escort searches out bad clients system, whether that is done online or by SMS, we don't keep a record of that search, so this data is not being stored by us.

Indeed, at that point, E-I is breaking no law but the escort is subject to Irish law and is sending the data to a third party and, even if the third party will discard the information, the escort may be breaking Irish law.

I'm not going to argue data protection law with you, other than to say our bad clients system is run under strict legal guidelines which were developed in the UK specifically for running bad clients systems and we believe it doesn't infringe anyone's data protection rights.

But were the legal guidelines taking into account Irish data protection law which is a lot tighter than the UK law?

Of course we take steps to ensure the data in our system is accurate, but there is no way we can guarantee it is. Yes, this system is open to abuse, in that escorts could lie to us to put someone in the bad clients system, just like clients can lie to us to give an escort a bad review.

These two cases are very different. If a client posts a bad review, the review and the client's id are both openly available to the escort and the escort gets an opportunity to make a rebuttal.

Irish data protection law is very clear on this.

From dataprotection.ie:

You should also be informed of, and given the chance to object to, any decisions about you that are automatically generated by a computer without any human involvement.

I see little difference in law between: "this man should not lightly be given credit because the database says that he shares an address with somebody who has an outstanding court order for unpaid bills" and "this client should be seen with caution because the database says that somebody using that phone number has made threats against escorts in the past."

There is of course a huge difference in the moral position but the law does not really care about that.

The idea of the guards trying to monitor inbounde SMS searches to find clients visiting escorts is a bit ridiculous I think, there are a hundred ways of identifying clients visiting escorts that would be easier and better than that.

I am very sorry, I guess that I failed to explain that well enough. I agree with you that the guards are unlikely to try to ID clients visiting escorts. I completely agree with you that the idea of the guards trying to use that means to identify clients visiting escorts is ridiculous. I feel really stupid because I have re-read my post and I cannot see where I even mentioned that the guards might try to identify clients visiting escorts. I was trying to say that the guards could use the method to identify escorts who might be breaking Irish data protection law by handing over data to a third party. Sorry for the confusion.

The point is that the guards could use the method that I noted to identify escorts who, the guards can then argue, are breaking Irish data protection law. Without such schemes, independent escorts are working within the law and yet they are still subject to the attentions of the guards who seem to be frustrated that the law does not currently criminalise the escorts' behaviour. Your database scheme (SMS or internet) does put escorts in a position whereby they are engaging in illegal activities.

If we keep this "secret" escorts won't know about it.

I do not think that you should keep it secret. I do not think that I suggested that it should be. I think that you should modify the scheme so that it is manifestly compliant with Irish and UK data protection laws.

The only thing about that idea which might upset some folks is that a client, subject to an accusation of abuse would be told of the accusation and of the identity of his accusers. Ask the parents of the Eastern European escorts here what they think of a system in which you can be punished as a result of secret accusations from unknown sources.

[Patricia]

Thanks for your further feedback sharkskin.

Regards legal issues, as I think I said we got comprehensive legal advice on all this several months ago, but we have made some updates since, so I will be sure to get solicitors to look over this all again now.

I don't think escorts could be breaking any law by using our bad clients system, but I'm not going to argue this point now. When I've put that issue to the lawyers and it's been properly looked at, then I can respond safe in the knowledge that I am able to answer that point correctly.

Clearly I misunderstood what you meant about guards first time around, but even with your further explanation I still feel you are imagining a scenario that is highly unlikely even if it were theoretically possible which I'm not sure it is. I'm not going to say what, because I don't wish to quote legal advice I've paid for that may help guards who wanted to target independent escorts, but there are many much easier methods a guard could use if he wanted to target an independent escort I think.

[punterminator]

But were the legal guidelines taking into account Irish data protection law which is a lot tighter than the UK law

Pardon my ignorance now and feel free to fill in the gaps in my knowledge but, the data is hosted in the US (well the site is anyway so I assume the data is also, I would be reasonably sure it's not hosted in Ireland). The SMS originates in the UK, and E-I inc, to my recollection, is registered in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong Patricia). Where exactly does Irish data protection law come into it? You are correct however in saying it is stricter than UK law.