Israel

[IAmLIAm]

I know you are being sarcastic but youre doing what most people are who are watching this situation.
You are conflating the population of Palestine with Hamas.

There are almost 5 million people in Palestine, there are 30k members of Hamas according to the IDF.
This is common though, there was a time when normal law abiding catholics in the North were branded as IRA.

Terrorism gains popularity and appeal when ordinary decent people are brutalised and have their human and civil rights taken away from them.
If the ordinary people of Palestine get their rights, then it doesnt matter what Hamas want from an extremist point of view in the Covenant of the Hamas, they slowly get starved of oxygen.
They definitely do not go away but they lose a lot of support and they dont radicalise new members easily

Oppression is a breeding ground for terrorism.
This thread started with a revisionist observation of what was going on.
Noone here is pro-Hamas, they are just highlighting nuance in the situation.

First, thanks for a cogent response.

Now, a few things to clarify from my previous posts. I believe I have only referenced Hamas and not the Palestinian citizenry (other than to reference the leadership role Hamas has governing said citizens in Gaza). Saying all Palestinians are Hamas is tantamount to saying all Israelis are Netanyahu disciples, though you are correct in the fact that both assumptions have been made in general. Also when I talk about Palestine from a Hamas point of view it references pre 1946 Palestine (which is the area most people looking at a map nowadays would consider the entirety of Israel and it's current Palestinian states). Obviously this confuses matters when speaking on the topic.

Now, I completely agree with your thoughts on how it is possible for terrorism and extreme beliefs to take root given the conditions you listed. However, Hamas (or any group exploiting people in those conditions) aren't going to allow conditions to improve, because it undermines their position of power. For all the conspiracy theories bandied about previously about who sacrificed who in order to spin the news / rally the troops, nobody thinks Hamas has a hand in keeping Gaza miserable and destitute and uneducated? I mean that make some pretty fertile soil to plant the seeds of hate and grow martyrs. In a perfect world I would hope I'm wrong, but maybe I'm too cynical to think that's the world we're in.

To wrap up this text wall, I would just like to say that I think most everyone in here holds a rather similar belief in that people should not be killing other people just because they are different (though here we are bludgeoning one another because I'm a step one way from center and you're a step the other, rather than seeing how much in common there is and exploring the nuance). I guess a handful of punters and escorts in a foreign land won't be able to solve this one.

[Marko1980]

Excellent thread with some very informative posts.

My view is, if you attack and kill over 1200 people without warning then you put yourself in the firing line for retaliation regardless of whatever happened prior to the event.

Again, whats with the lack of understanding here?
5 million Palestinian people didnt attack anyone.
A terrorist group called Hamas did. Turning off electricity, water, access to food for 1 million children in Gaza and proceeding to bomb the shit out of civilian infrastructure is ok retaliation is it?
The Israeli government now have an excuse to attack all Palestinian citizens exactly because the narrative is that its all of them attacking Israel. Its not.

[Marko1980]

First, thanks for a cogent response.

Now, a few things to clarify from my previous posts. I believe I have only referenced Hamas and not the Palestinian citizenry (other than to reference the leadership role Hamas has governing said citizens in Gaza). Saying all Palestinians are Hamas is tantamount to saying all Israelis are Netanyahu disciples, though you are correct in the fact that both assumptions have been made in general. Also when I talk about Palestine from a Hamas point of view it references pre 1946 Palestine (which is the area most people looking at a map nowadays would consider the entirety of Israel and it's current Palestinian states). Obviously this confuses matters when speaking on the topic.

Now, I completely agree with your thoughts on how it is possible for terrorism and extreme beliefs to take root given the conditions you listed. However, Hamas (or any group exploiting people in those conditions) aren't going to allow conditions to improve, because it undermines their position of power. For all the conspiracy theories bandied about previously about who sacrificed who in order to spin the news / rally the troops, nobody thinks Hamas has a hand in keeping Gaza miserable and destitute and uneducated? I mean that make some pretty fertile soil to plant the seeds of hate and grow martyrs. In a perfect world I would hope I'm wrong, but maybe I'm too cynical to think that's the world we're in.

To wrap up this text wall, I would just like to say that I think most everyone in here holds a rather similar belief in that people should not be killing other people just because they are different (though here we are bludgeoning one another because I'm a step one way from center and you're a step the other, rather than seeing how much in common there is and exploring the nuance). I guess a handful of punters and escorts in a foreign land won't be able to solve this one.

You were saying in your post that "in a nutshell" people in the thread were pro-Hamas. I was just pointing out that most people in this thread were actually offering arguments for the people of Palestine, millions of them.
Not the terrorist organisation but people think if you speak for the people its the same, its not.

A
"Saying all Palestinians are Hamas is tantamount to saying all Israelis are Netanyahu disciples"
Here is the difference, it doesnt matter who is a Netanyahu disciple or not, he is the elected representative of the people of Israel and the one ordering the attacks. He is the state.

Hamas are not the Palestinian people.

He is also accountable for upholding war-crime standards and hes not and he will never face any consequences for that.

[Airbusdriver]

Excellent thread with some very informative posts.

My view is, if you attack and kill over 1200 people without warning then you put yourself in the firing line for retaliation regardless of whatever happened prior to the event.

Exactly. But the depravity of what Hamas did makes this so awful, raping women, parading dead bodies triumphantly throught Gaza, taking children & elderly as hostages and reportedly beheading lots of babies, this shows Hamas don't give one toss about ordinary Palestinians, they knew full well this would trigger a massive response from Israel like never seen before. The blood is on their hands.

[Notabot]

Exactly. But the depravity of what Hamas did makes this so awful, raping women, parading dead bodies triumphantly throught Gaza, taking children & elderly as hostages and reportedly beheading lots of babies, this shows Hamas don't give one toss about ordinary Palestinians, they knew full well this would trigger a massive response from Israel like never seen before. The blood is on their hands.

So everything Israel is doing in Gaza since Sunday is Hamas fault? Are you having a laugh?. So I take it you absolve the British soldiers who killed innocent civilians in Northern Ireland during the troubles they were only carrying out retaliatory attacks to the IRA?. So all the bloodshed there is on the IRA's hands?.

[Marko1980]

So everything Israel is doing in Gaza since Sunday is Hamas fault? Are you having a laugh?. So I take it you absolve the British soldiers who killed innocent civilians in Northern Ireland during the troubles they were only carrying out retaliatory attacks to the IRA?. So all the bloodshed there is on the IRA's hands?.

2 things here, he is either a huge troll who wanted to start the thread for his own entertainment or hes not capable of rational thought.
Either way i would ignore him because hes only commenting on what suits him now.

[Stephanie]

Don’t Tell me , Israel was not aware ! Under their noses ?

I don’t buy it .

https://news.sky.com/video/share-12982539

[IAmLIAm]

You were saying in your post that "in a nutshell" people in the thread were pro-Hamas. I was just pointing out that most people in this thread were actually offering arguments for the people of Palestine, millions of them.
Not the terrorist organisation but people think if you speak for the people its the same, its not.

A
"Saying all Palestinians are Hamas is tantamount to saying all Israelis are Netanyahu disciples"
Here is the difference, it doesnt matter who is a Netanyahu disciple or not, he is the elected representative of the people of Israel and the one ordering the attacks. He is the state.

Hamas are not the Palestinian people.

He is also accountable for upholding war-crime standards and hes not and he will never face any consequences for that.

For fuck's sake, I thought the sarcasm was obvious. The "we're all pro genocide" was making the point that everyone has been quick to stick their label on others without actually having any discourse on the finer points of the topic (obviously, that has yet to be resolved)

Also I still have never confused the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza with Hamas (there are 5 million total, the other 3 million are in the West Bank governed by the PLO {just to clarify facts}). However, Hamas is the recognized representative body of Gaza much like Netanyahu is the representative for Israel (different means of acquired leadership, for sure, but untill you overthrow them {by means of election or rebellion} thems the breaks). By extension of your logic Irish citizens are as bad as Netanyahu since Irish elected officials made statements of support towards Israel (we all should realize how absurd a statement that just had). That's the problem, people here are making valid points but everyone seems closed off to hearing anything they don't already agree with.

This is a conflict that has been going on for over 100 years (when the roles were reversed) and that's just the varying iterations of this particular conflict, not including the crusades or tribal conflicts or anything pre industrial revolution era.

I also have never stated a pro Israel stance. There have been atrocities committed by both sides. I will forever stand with "the people". A governments duty is to the will of it's people not to subjugate them (but that seems to be what's happening more and more the world over). Of course Israel's government should be held accountable for it's wrong doings and hasn't, but that doesn't absolve Hamas from theirs. It would be great if Israelis took it up on themselves to hold their government to task (but when you are cohabitating with a group uninterested in peace that's a hard sell) it would also be great if the Palestinians in Gaza ousted Hamas (that's an even taller order for many reasons).

You can call me a troll if it makes you feel better (I have little control over how you want to label me). But what I am is anti government overreach, anti mega-corporation social engineering, anti religious indoctrination and pro learning (even things I think I might disagree with). My belief is the more we care to learn of each other the better we can understand each other and understanding leads to empathizing, which leads to a willingness to help. If all that doesn't fit into a tidy little box for you to apply your designated tag to, so be it.

[Marko1980]

For fuck's sake, I thought the sarcasm was obvious. The "we're all pro genocide" was making the point that everyone has been quick to stick their label on others without actually having any discourse on the finer points of the topic (obviously, that has yet to be resolved)

Also I still have never confused the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza with Hamas (there are 5 million total, the other 3 million are in the West Bank governed by the PLO {just to clarify facts}). However, Hamas is the recognized representative body of Gaza much like Netanyahu is the representative for Israel (different means of acquired leadership, for sure, but untill you overthrow them {by means of election or rebellion} thems the breaks). By extension of your logic Irish citizens are as bad as Netanyahu since Irish elected officials made statements of support towards Israel (we all should realize how absurd a statement that just had). That's the problem, people here are making valid points but everyone seems closed off to hearing anything they don't already agree with.

This is a conflict that has been going on for over 100 years (when the roles were reversed) and that's just the varying iterations of this particular conflict, not including the crusades or tribal conflicts or anything pre industrial revolution era.

I also have never stated a pro Israel stance. There have been atrocities committed by both sides. I will forever stand with "the people". A governments duty is to the will of it's people not to subjugate them (but that seems to be what's happening more and more the world over). Of course Israel's government should be held accountable for it's wrong doings and hasn't, but that doesn't absolve Hamas from theirs. It would be great if Israelis took it up on themselves to hold their government to task (but when you are cohabitating with a group uninterested in peace that's a hard sell) it would also be great if the Palestinians in Gaza ousted Hamas (that's an even taller order for many reasons).

You can call me a troll if it makes you feel better (I have little control over how you want to label me). But what I am is anti government overreach, anti mega-corporation social engineering, anti religious indoctrination and pro learning (even things I think I might disagree with). My belief is the more we care to learn of each other the better we can understand each other and understanding leads to empathizing, which leads to a willingness to help. If all that doesn't fit into a tidy little box for you to apply your designated tag to, so be it.

2 things here,
I never suggested you were a troll at all.
I have no problem with Israeli civilians, unfortunately for them they are ruled by a racist moron and id say a hell of a lot of them would condemn the response.
But he runs the state and its a state response, all im saying is that he is answerable to his citizens because he is acting on their behalf.
That's all.
But the buck stops with him.

[IAmLIAm]

2 things here,
I never suggested you were a troll at all.
I have no problem with Israeli civilians, unfortunately for them they are ruled by a racist moron and id say a hell of a lot of them would condemn the response.
But he runs the state and its a state response, all im saying is that he is answerable to his citizens because he is acting on their behalf.
That's all.
But the buck stops with him.

You're right. The troll statement was a more general to the forum remark, but since I had quoted you that does give the wrong implication. Poor self editing on my part.

I also agree that leaders should be serving those they lead and be held accountable (not the other way around). Unfortunately the way in which these leaders can be held accountable (if at all) varies drastically across the globe (and even regionally). Furthermore, as I'm sure we've all fallen victim to at some point, sometimes all the options are shite.

A terror attack and the systematic oppression of a people should both elicit an emotional response. We are all allowed to have that visceral reaction and our own opinions on the events. I just wish that we (as a global society) would also acknowledgement that as humans we carry inherent bias (based on our own experiences) and that's perfectly natural, but the ability (or willingness) to put aside our biases in order to gain a better understanding (even if it means we end up being proved wrong) is paramount to our progress as humankind. I just feel like over the last 10-15years the world, as a whole, has taken a step backwards 40years (maybe I'll be proved wrong) but the global restrictions on women's rights, the rise the acceptance of blaitent racism, the continuing housing crisis across much of the "1st world", all has me a bit concerned with where we're headed.

There is so much nuance to everything happening in the world, but that's a hard story to tell (or at least profit off of) so we're fed these parsed bits of information customized to whichever echo chamber they're being slipped in to. The worst part is we allow it because it's easier then having the uncomfortable conversations and exposing our potential vulnerabilities or having to reassess our own beliefs