Israel

[SteveB]

Its not that deep, the general thing is to not knowingly and consciously bring the civilian population into any fighting. It doesnt require a law degree.

All law is complicated, unfortunately. Complicated in its wording and, more so, especially with the "laws of war" extremely complicated in practice.
Easy to understand that you do not torture or kill prisoners and the like but other laws are not so clear cut.
A lot of them assume two armies facing each other over empty ground. A lot of fighting now takes place in built up areas with long-range artillery, missiles, and strikes from the air.

Under the laws of war, combatants are required to be members of a proper military organisation and wear recognisable uniforms. When they are not and do not and your enemy are just armed civilians (for example, may be a thirteen-year-old with a rocket launcher) it gets murky. Even murkier when they are deliberately using hospitals and other civilian infrastructure as cover.

There seems to be a perception that you cannot wage war if it may involve civilian casualties. That is a noble idea (more noble of course, would be to sort out our differences without violence). However, the requirement is that you do not deliberately directly target non-combatants and take all precautions to safe guard them. In practice, non-combatants and their property become "collateral damage" and this is usually justified by claiming that the target was a combatant and any other "collateral damage" was incidental.

[Notabot]

Its not that deep, the general thing is to not knowingly and consciously bring the civilian population into any fighting. It doesnt require a law degree.

Both sides have knowingly targets civilians both sides are wrong for doing so nobody is denying that. But people are saying Hamas are the problem and need to be wiped out are wrong. Hamas are not the only problem this conflict predates Hamas existence. Hamas was formed out of hatred of Israeli attacks killing Palestinian people. It's quite clear Israel has been the aggressor in this conflict since the late 60's after the 5 day war. After the war they occupied land that didn't belong to them and since have taken more and more land illegally. Israel has a right to exist I acknowledge that, but that right doesn't allow it to slowly push the Palestinian people out of existence. Palestinians also have a right to exist. They have a right to exist without Israel telling them to leave their land, killing them when they refuse and then move in Israeli settler's. Israel has over 140 illegal settlement on Palestinian land. Why do people just expect the Palestinian people to roll over and accept this? Of course they are going to fight back and although I don't agree with how they are fighting back I can see why, they are not capable of defeating the large modern western equipped army of Israel in a out and out war. If Israel wanted peace it would remove it's illegal settlements from Palestinian Territory and keep itself to its territory. It not "defending" itself when it's the one invading and killing.
But that's not what Israel wants, even now it's clear to see that Northern Gaza will be occupied by Israeli settler's once the IDF push the Palestinians south.
Won't be long until all Gaza belongs to Israeli.

[Marko1980]

All law is complicated, unfortunately. Complicated in its wording and, more so, especially with the "laws of war" extremely complicated in practice.
Easy to understand that you do not torture or kill prisoners and the like but other laws are not so clear cut.
A lot of them assume two armies facing each other over empty ground. A lot of fighting now takes place in built up areas with long-range artillery, missiles, and strikes from the air.

Under the laws of war, combatants are required to be members of a proper military organisation and wear recognisable uniforms. When they are not and do not and your enemy are just armed civilians (for example, may be a thirteen-year-old with a rocket launcher) it gets murky. Even murkier when they are deliberately using hospitals and other civilian infrastructure as cover.

There seems to be a perception that you cannot wage war if it may involve civilian casualties. That is a noble idea (more noble of course, would be to sort out our differences without violence). However, the requirement is that you do not deliberately directly target non-combatants and take all precautions to safe guard them. In practice, non-combatants and their property become "collateral damage" and this is usually justified by claiming that the target was a combatant and any other "collateral damage" was incidental.

Its interesting that this level of nuance and appreciation is talked about in this situation but when civilian targets were hit during the Russia/Ukraine war it was condemned from a height with zero room for manoevre, rightly so in my opinion.

I hear you on the complexity of it, but when you phone a hospital and advise that youre going to bomb it and doctors say that they cannot move 100s of patients who are in ICU or too ill then its not that complicated really.
Also when red crescent, Msf and Unicef can back up the claims of the doctors so as not to have any doubt, the complexity is gone or should be.
A decent lawyer would win that one in court.

[Notabot]

Its interesting that this level of nuance and appreciation is talked about in this situation but when civilian targets were hit during the Russia/Ukraine war it was condemned from a height with zero room for manoevre, rightly so in my opinion.

I hear you on the complexity of it, but when you phone a hospital and advise that youre going to bomb it and doctors say that they cannot move 100s of patients who are in ICU or too ill then its not that complicated really.
Also when red crescent, Msf and Unicef can back up the claims of the doctors so as not to have any doubt, the complexity is gone or should be.
A decent lawyer would win that one in court.

Israel have always targeted civilian. In April/may this year the IDF entered Palestine territory for an operation that lasted several days resulting in the deaths of many Palestinians, even a child who was targeted by a sniper. No outcry from the west about it. In the west bank recently Israeli soldiers shot at group of kids who were protesting against the Israeli attack in Gaza killing a 12 year old boy again the west stayed quite. Apparently a group of 12 year olds are dangerous terrorists. The west only pipe up when hamas target Israeli civilians.
If this conflict between Israel and Palestine is to end both sides need to answer for its crime but we know Israel won't.
The present confrontation will end when Israel takes northern Gaza. Then it'll wait for Hamas to strike again again so it can achieve its goal of securing the whole Gaza for Israeli settler's.
Anyone who thinks this war is Israel trying to eliminate Hamas have no clue what they are talking about. Even if hamas falls another group will rise up as a result just as Hamas did in the late 80's. Military force doesn't stop terrorism it creates it.

[WeeJimmy]

If I could contact the Aliens again I'd ask the Mothership to wipe out where these evil leaders are,
We have madmen running the world and destroying human life for their own gain, The World is truly Fuked

[FredBiscuits]

If I could contact the Aliens again I'd ask the Mothership to wipe out where these evil leaders are

Oh, people would just elect the same type of person again, wherever they have to opportunity to do so.

[WeeJimmy]

Oh, people would just elect the same type of person again, wherever they have to opportunity to do so.

yes but that where the peoples eyes must be opened to whats really going on. Countries must grow a pair and stand up and say That's enough and our country wont support you and if you get enough countries to do it then it be different.

I always said US and their so called friends/Media/BIG POWER PLAYERS want to divide the people, to have blacks against whites, the rich against the poor and religion again religion etc as they know when people are divided they are weak and got no power.

[FredBiscuits]

We have a tendency to take a lot of collective responsibility away from the public, and we always do.

Politicians did a bad thing, their fault... Not the people who elected them on that exact platform.

Bankers must have forced everyone to take our loans they shouldn't have got... The people taking out the loans get no blame whatsoever (I'm one of those people who took out the loans by the way).


Arseholes will vote for arseholes, and they'll go on to do arsehole things.

[Stephanie]

We have a tendency to take a lot of collective responsibility away from the public, and we always do.

Politicians did a bad thing, their fault... Not the people who elected them on that exact platform.

Bankers must have forced everyone to take our loans they shouldn't have got... The people taking out the loans get no blame whatsoever (I'm one of those people who took out the loans by the way).


Arseholes will vote for arseholes, and they'll go on to do arsehole things.

Last free elections in Gaza was in 2006 when Hamas got into power . 17 Years ago .

There have been No Elections Since .

They just rule / and misrule over the people .

[Stephanie]

If I said "Palestinians in Gaza may unfortunately pay with their lives for their administration's actions and policy" I can imagine many people here would think that I was trying to downplay something.

What I see in this debate is
people calling out the hypocrisy on the other side while defending and downplaying it on their own.

Hamas has a right to resist. Ok, well Israel has a right to defend its existence. But Israel doesn't have the right to break international law. True. Neither does Hamas.

If you've (you general, not you specifically Stephanie) picked your side and everything from hereonin is confirmation bias then then grand. If the actions of Israel against civilians is dispicable but the actions of Hamas against civilians is legitimate resistance or the unfortunate necessary collateral in response to Israel's existence and history then this isn't a debate really.

If you're starting point is thay Israel.or Palestine should be obliterated from the earth, then I'm not gonna debate with you because we have nothing that can be bridged in understanding and solving the problem.

Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism, but antisemitism long predates modern Israel, and it never went away.

Hon ,

You are so vehement in your defense of the indefensible , you are becoming nonsensical —

— which a huge surprise to me : from You !

: “ I predict a worldwide open season on Israeli persons - who may unfortunately pay with their lives

for their government’s policy .” - is quite different from wholesale massacre of innocents by a State .

How can you - a sensible , decent , good hearted person - equate the two and

continue to be so adamant in your position ?


The Palestinian People and Hamas Not the same thing ! I’d like to believe that slowly most

people understand that and very clearly support for Palestine does Not equal support for Hamas .

But of Course you know that - it just suits to conflate .

Israel’s right to exist : sure .

Palestinians’ / ‘Palestine’s’ right to exist : Where Is it ??

In your post you’re equating Hamas to the Palestinian People : you’re better than that .

But once you’d make the distinction , your position becomes indefensible .

“Israel has a right to defend its existence” - sure they do . That’s is Not what is happening .

Bibi ( Netanyahu ) very clearly on live feed stated that he is Not willing for a ceasefire .

He will continue to bomb the living sh*t out of Gaza and will continue killing innocents .

How is that defensible !!? That is Not defending ‘right to exist’ . It’s massacre . It’s extermination

of a People .



How do you propose a caged subjugated people resist their oppressors in Any way that would not be

deemed ‘violence’ and ‘terrorism’ ?

: How would a caged animal Resist its captivity and miserable existence if not by biting ?

Tell me , in your opinion : how could the Palestinian people Resist their oppression ,

their captors and torturers ? / may that be Hamas Or Israel ?

Please tell me , how could , in what way could the Palestinian People defend Their right to Exist ?


: “ people calling out the hypocrisy on the other side while defending and downplaying it on their own.”

I do not believe a single person would condone the Oct 7th actions of Hamas . You are so letting me down

with such argument .

But Yes , people - including myself - are calling out the horrific hypocrisy that is the whole Israel / Gaza

affaire is .

On Oct 7th ~ 1,100 innocent Israeli civilians and 365 ( ? ) armed Israeli soldiers were massacred .

No one denies that . No one condones that .

Since then there has been an indiscriminate extermination of the Palestinian people : their

death toll now nearing ? Over ? 10,000 ? The number of injured I cannot even fathom .

Nearly Half of injured are small Children . How can you Still argue that this is justified !?

“Israel’s Right to Exist” !

/ yes I know you put your “war crime is wrong” in your posts - yet your other words becry otherwise .

You say we each are entrenched in our positions : you are as much if not more than any other .


And though we disagree on this subject - I don’t think any less of you :: your personal experiences

in Jerusalem cannot be discounted - clearly it would color anyone’s position : to the one or to the other side .


“ Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism, but antisemitism long predates modern Israel, and it never went away.” -

That is very true .