Ukraine

[jessicabp]

Horrible! Horrible!

[Mrbean76]

Kids hospital in Marripoul, what is wrong with those people. Is he trying to get the West into a war?

He's just a lunatic. The Ukrainian soldiers and civilians are fighting back fiercely and have my total respect. I'm not detracting from their success and bravery but imagine if the Russian army faced Nato forces , they would be obliterated. Without their nukes the Russian army is quite useless.

I don't think putin wants to fight the west , he knows they'd lose. He has definitely misjudged the whole situation, whatever happens his days are numbered, hopefully!!

[EscortInspector]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/co...ear-superpower

History is brutally back, and Ukraine will test Europe’s appetite for the consequences by Luuk van Middelaar
The EU’s vocation was to tear down walls and promote peace. Should it be a party to a conflict with a nuclear superpower?
Wed 9 Mar 2022

History is like “a riderless horse, galloping through the night”. That was the image the then Spanish prime minister, Félipe González, used to depict the night the Berlin Wall fell. Since 24 February, when history stormed out of the stables, we have again been living in such a moment. Will we be able to bridle it again?

With the invasion of Ukraine the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, has thrown himself into the unthinkable. He has crossed the Rubicon into a time of war. He has no way back. Fire and flames, all or nothing. Political will and cool-headedness on our side are now of vital importance. The first is present in abundance, but the latter is in short supply.

In times of great danger, unexpected forces are unleashed. Ukraine is fighting back, and in the opening battle for European public opinion it has achieved a stunning victory. We are no longer looking at a chaotic country on the Black Sea but a nation presenting itself as the bearer of Europe’s democratic promise, with the president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, its hero.

At least as unexpected is Germany’s geopolitical awakening. Massive defence investments, military support for Kyiv, the recognition of gas dependency as a strategic error: one surprise follows another. Germany’s chancellor, Olaf Scholz, spoke in the Bundestag of a “zeitenwende” (historical turning point) for Europe, and took his parliament and public with him into that new era. It’s how Helmut Kohl seized the moment in November 1989. Three weeks after the fall of the Berlin Wall he single-handedly launched plans for German unification in that same Bundestag, astonishing friend and foe alike.

This spectacular second German wende gives the whole EU more unity and strength. Now that Berlin is no longer applying the brakes, Europe is suddenly deploying the power of its economic sanctions with full force.

It is also striking that the EU will be delivering weapons worth €450m to Kyiv, something that would have been taboo until 10 days ago. To the EU, this feels like crossing a Rubicon of its own. The European alliance for peace is now a party in a conflict with a military and nuclear superpower.

The impact of Germany’s awakening is more far-reaching still. As long as Europe’s most powerful country remained militarily reluctant, Europe could not be strong. Now that Germany is accepting the realities of international power politics, a lot can change. France, which has always pushed for a more geopolitical Europe, will feel less alone. Other defence-spending laggards such as the Netherlands and Italy will no longer be able to hide behind Germany’s back.

These events also empower Poland and the other central and eastern European member states. For years, their warnings against Russia were considered exaggerations in Europe’s capitals of the west and the south (except, perhaps, London). This has now changed.

Just weeks ago, Poland was in the EU dock for offending against the rule of law. Today, peace and security trump such worries. But at a moment when Europe is fighting in the name of democratic freedoms, it should not lower its guard internally either.

Europe shows plenty of political energy, but strategic calm is sometimes lacking – which is worrying. Twitter triumphalism about Russian military miscalculation is premature. Keeping heads cool is now a matter of life and death. The absolute priority is to avert the danger of a nuclear war. Bravely insisting that Putin is bluffing when he threatens one is irresponsible.

But that fact does not seem to have got through to all the leading politicians. On the very day the weapons deliveries were announced, the European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, rashly put the prospect of EU membership for Ukraine on the table. The next day, Zelenskiy submitted an official request. Poland and other eastern European countries cheered in response, and the European parliament applauded. Hesitant member states kept quiet or took a nuanced position for the time being; nobody begrudges the beleaguered Ukrainians a ray of hope.

In the recklessness of the zeitenwende, Von der Leyen appears to ignore the fact that for the Kremlin, which we are trying to bring to its senses, Nato’s and the EU’s promises to Kyiv since 2008 and 2014 are primary sources of conflict. Is this the best moment to feed the distrust of an opponent in full rage, and to add complexity to a situation already filled with dangerous ambiguities? Amid such high tension, diplomatic formulas of “long-term perspective” or “perhaps one day” are counterproductive. It is tragic but, at best, such statements have come too early. At worst, they will be another false promise. The upcoming EU summit in Versailles on 10-11 March would then repeat for the EU what the infamous Bucharest summit in April 2008 did for Nato: open a door to aspiring members while knowing very well they will never cross it in one piece.

And how are we to envisage the outcome: the former Soviet Republic Ukraine joining the EU without becoming a Nato member at the same time? The latter is a geopolitical red line, since it would risk a nuclear war between the US and Russia. But without the US, can the EU rescue Ukraine from Moscow’s clutches based on its own military assistance clause (article 42(7) of the Treaty of Lisbon), the untested counterpart to the Nato treaty’s article 5, which says an attack on one is an attack on all? Unsurprisingly, Georgia and Moldova, two other countries eager to escape Moscow’s grip, followed suit within days in seeking EU membership.

During the big EU eastward enlargement after the end of the cold war, Poland and the other new members entered Nato first. There was a gap of five years for some (like Poland), just a matter of weeks for others (like Slovenia), but the nuclear-security guarantee always came before the EU acquis – and not without reason. It is true that Finland and Sweden are in the EU but outside Nato (as are Austria, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus), but those states were neutral in the cold war, and not behind the iron curtain. Faced with the Russian threat, Finland and Sweden may now want to join. For the EU it might be more urgent to diminish the strategic ambiguity for these two current members by somehow extending Nato’s nuclear umbrella to them, rather than dangerously increasing it for all. To the beleagured aspirants, there are other ways to offer economic support and a prospect of rapprochement.

The example of Ukrainian EU membership shows that even this war has not freed Europe of its inbuilt strategic insouciance. Thinking in terms of power, interests and identity, in terms of history and geography, is at odds with Brussels’ traditional self-image as a neutral and open space. The EU, after all, was built to overcome power politics, to tear down borders and walls, to disarm national rivalries. Its 1950s founders saw their community as the vanguard of world peace – not a player jostling with the rest but a moral beacon speaking the language of values, at once affable and haughty. This vocation was strengthened after 1989: Europe was the end of history.

Now that history is brutally back, it will take time to amend these deficiencies and inbuilt blind spots. Simply calling for a “geopolitical commission” (as Von der Leyen has done) or for more “European sovereignty” (language that made it into the German coalition agreement) is insufficient. As is delivering weapons to Kyiv. An angel with a sword is still an angel.

If Europe is to act as a power among powers, capable at some stage even of commanding destructive military force, it will need a different political language to speak about its place in the world. As Hans Kribbe writes in his book The Strongmen, the EU will need to change its ethos and demeanour. In sum, it should no longer be the angel battling to liberate the continent and the world from evil and tyranny, but a mortal, more strategic and real-political actor, which also understands the limits of its powers and its own time.

In Versailles this week, EU leaders will discuss these matters. In the weeks ahead, one question will be: can we accept coexistence with a geopolitical adversary whom we despise, be it in Moscow or Beijing? Not crushing them as the devil incarnate, not trying to destroy them, not projecting ourselves (again) into a post-historical future of universal peace, but dealing with them as a rival? Politically, that is perhaps the real Rubicon that Europe needs to cross.

Some sobering, hard-hitting truths for the EU.

[joggon]

[Stephanie]

: Putin -

Brutal , barbaric , and playing the Long Game .



Possible truce in sight ? : on His terms

[Westsidex]

China are slowly leaning away from Putin. I'd hate to be a Russian now. The Russian economy will be in shit eventually.

Westside

[Forceuser]

: Putin -

Brutal , barbaric , and playing the Long Game .



Possible truce in sight ? : on His terms

No matter how this ends,the rest of the world needs to keep up the sanctions for the long term
bastard can't be let away scot-free with what he's done

[WeeJimmy]

Putin got it all but wants to dominate and bully now and see how far he gets. theyre all a bunch of lying corrupt muppets
he is very rich and just wants to conquer now, he is now forcing soldiers to join up and fight and die while he is safe and cosy in his lavish palace, its all so wrong.
He got it wrong and just too thick to back down so will carry on till Ukraine is so destroyed, how sad this is

[WeeJimmy]

China are slowly leaning away from Putin. I'd hate to be a Russian now. The Russian economy will be in shit eventually.

Westside

but westie. Putin won't care, he very rich, corrupt as fuk and will be ok, its the people that will suffer and he is feeding them a load of lies and torturing them so he aint got much respect for them anyway

[Stephanie]

Why is Ukraine the West's Fault?




Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault: The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-conte...-Crisis-Is.pdf


Worth a watch and a read. Sleepwalking into a disaster!

What an eye opening lecture !

There’s much I didn’t know : explains So much about this whole fiasco

of escalation and invasion / timeline and motivation and precipitating events !

Putin in 2008 (!) said Exactly what he would do if His Red Lines were not respected :

: did it in Georgia first when Georgia got too big for their britches - thinking they have NATO backing

just b’cause NATO extended their ‘invitation’ . : Putin went in and demolished ,

put in a puppet regime and now that’s that .

: At 2008 Bucharest ( Budapest ? ) conference Georgia and Ukraine 🇺🇦 were discussed

and Their gradual ‘westernizarion’ by promotion of democracy , by invitation to

EU Membership and NATO membership : those Three things Are Putin’s Red Lines .

: Georgia acted first - got crushed first .

And the West did not Hear , or did not Believe what Putin Said as his Red Lines .

This invasion has been brewing since at least 2014 — in 2008 he said ‘hands off ,

or I’ll Wreck it’ . I think that’s what we are seeing .


It’s a great piece of academia , with logic experience and insight : well worth watching .

I do not agree that a Sovereign Nation should not be able to determine their own path !

But I also said earlier in the thread that imo between great opposing forces there Must be

a DMZ - Demilitarized zone : like between the two Koreas .

I did say imo Ukraine - to its tremendous misfortune - seems to be destined to be That .

I said Ukraine should be a Free Trade ‘DMZ’ . : Will Must be and remain Neutral !! No EU .

: but my God !

Least 2/3rds of the country Want to open to the West , they want Freedom , democracy !

How can Ukraine , or any of these other countries sleep at night ! Civil War ? Or puppet Govt ?

// Odessa will never be let go ; think Moldova may be next . East Ukraine is to the Rus .



Inspector - I did see the thumbnail for this video on YT , but couldn’t be bothered :

Thank you for posting it x

// the article I haven’t read yet x


Even though Putin is a ba*tard barbaric liar , he Did tell the West in 2008 what he was going to do

if His lines are crossed , and that is exactly what he has done and is doing .

The atrocities are unforgivable and he Should be tried for War Crimes - hope he sits in The Hague .

But for now ,

In the end it seems he Is getting his way - albeit at incomprehensible human and economic cost .

What a fxing human tragedy .

Pray Zelensky should see that unfortunately, his country is Not a vital Western interest ;

Pray he should negotiate with That understanding , and try to salvage and save the rest of Country 🇺🇦