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  1. #1
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    Default Selling sex "aiding and abetting"..

    Michael McDowell has written a fairly damning opinion piece on the Sexual Offences Bill in todays Sunday Business Post. In it he not only points out the flaws in the Bill but points out that Fitzgerald wants to rush "her trophy legislation" through the Seanad next week so she can impress the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. She's obviously not expecting any delays - the Bill is up for debate on Tuesday and she's heading the delegation in Geneva on Wednesday. He points out that 80% of the present Seanad haven't debated the Bill because it started out there before the last election, and that to rush it through in an afternoon is "scandalous".

    He also makes some interesting points on the law from a purely legal point of view. He calls the criminalisation of purchasing sexual services a "blackmailers charter", but that's probably the intention in the first place.

    More importantly he points out a serious flaw in the legislation which could mean that sex workers could end being charged with an offence even though the new law decriminalises the act of selling sexual services. By selling their services sex workers could be seen as "aiding and abetting" the committing of an offence by the client and could be charged along with them. (Criminal Justice Administration Act 1914). As this would effectively criminalise even indoor sex workers who work alone you'd have to wonder if it is an oversight or deliberate.

    But none of this is very surprising when you consider that Fitzgerald thinks making sex work more dangerous is a "good deterrent" to entry into the industry.
    Last edited by Prickly; 12-02-17 at 12:20. Reason: " "

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    I think it's clear from any normal persons perspective, whether they approve of sex workers, those who visit them and their rights or not that this legislation is seriously flawed!

    I don't know what the Seanad will do on Tuesday — unfortunately I can't see sense prevailing even there
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    Has the former Moinister for Justice suggested how it might be defeated in the courts? One thing for sure rushed legislation tends to end up with more holes in it than Donal McGlinchey!
    Ride them on the beaches!

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    Prickly,

    Any chance of a link?
    Ride them on the beaches!

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by The Libertarian View Post
    Prickly,

    Any chance of a link?
    I found this

    >>>>> Clicky Clicky <<<<<

    But you need to subscribe!
    Last edited by Petros; 12-02-17 at 14:36.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prickly View Post
    Michael McDowell has written a fairly damning opinion piece on the Sexual Offences Bill in todays Sunday Business Post. In it he not only points out the flaws in the Bill but points out that Fitzgerald wants to rush "her trophy legislation" through the Seanad next week so she can impress the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. She's obviously not expecting any delays - the Bill is up for debate on Tuesday and she's heading the delegation in Geneva on Wednesday. He points out that 80% of the present Seanad haven't debated the Bill because it started out there before the last election, and that to rush it through in an afternoon is "scandalous".

    He also makes some interesting points on the law from a purely legal point of view. He calls the criminalisation of purchasing sexual services a "blackmailers charter", but that's probably the intention in the first place.

    More importantly he points out a serious flaw in the legislation which could mean that sex workers could end being charged with an offence even though the new law decriminalises the act of selling sexual services. By selling their services sex workers could be seen as "aiding and abetting" the committing of an offence by the client and could be charged along with them. (Criminal Justice Administration Act 1914). As this would effectively criminalise even indoor sex workers who work alone you'd have to wonder if it is an oversight or deliberate.

    But none of this is very surprising when you consider that Fitzgerald thinks making sex work more dangerous is a "good deterrent" to entry into the industry.
    An excellent find Prickly

    Prickly
    The Equalizer

    points out that Fitzgerald wants to rush "her trophy legislation" through the Seanad next week so she can impress the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women
    And possibly while she is still Justice Minister
    And with regards to Fitzgerald tying to impress the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, will Frances Fitzgerald also tell the UN Committee about how she refused to listen to all the Independent Sex Workers (mainly women) whom spoke against Fitzgerald's proposed Swedish-style Legislation and totally disregarded their opinions on the matter, and also how she said that making the Sex Industry more dangerous would act as a "good deterrent" (specifically for women) to entry into the industry

    He points out that 80% of the present Seanad haven't debated the Bill because it started out there before the last election, and that to rush it through in an afternoon is "scandalous"
    .
    It might be (just enough) time to contact appropriate elected representatives in this matter to voice concerns (or voice any other way deemd appropriate )

    But none of this is very surprising when you consider that Fitzgerald thinks making sex work more dangerous is a "good deterrent" to entry into the industry.
    The only thing I find surprising is that Frances allowed her mask to slip
    Odds against you?

    PM The Equalizer

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    One way we could try and get the Seanad members to reject the bill would be to contact them and send them the literature from WHO, Swedish Stats, surveys of irish sex workers and evidence from New Zealand on the benefit of a decriminalised and regulated sex industry.

    This is a list of the current senators along with means of contacting them.
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-his...um=25&disp=mem

    Anyone have links to the kind of articles I mentioned above?
    You wont know, until you try!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Equalizer View Post
    An excellent find Prickly

    Prickly
    The Equalizer

    [The only thing I find surprising is that Frances allowed her mask to slip
    Fitzgerald is far from the sharpest in the pencil case and she has been promoted vastly beyond her capacity as has Zappone!
    Ride them on the beaches!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Equalizer View Post
    An excellent find Prickly

    Prickly
    The Equalizer

    points out that Fitzgerald wants to rush "her trophy legislation" through the Seanad next week so she can impress the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women
    And possibly while she is still Justice Minister
    And with regards to Fitzgerald tying to impress the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, will Frances Fitzgerald also tell the UN Committee about how she refused to listen to all the Independent Sex Workers (mainly women) whom spoke against Fitzgerald's proposed Swedish-style Legislation and totally disregarded their opinions on the matter, and also how she said that making the Sex Industry more dangerous would act as a "good deterrent" (specifically for women) to entry into the industry

    He points out that 80% of the present Seanad haven't debated the Bill because it started out there before the last election, and that to rush it through in an afternoon is "scandalous"
    .
    It might be (just enough) time to contact appropriate elected representatives in this matter to voice concerns (or voice any other way deemd appropriate )

    But none of this is very surprising when you consider that Fitzgerald thinks making sex work more dangerous is a "good deterrent" to entry into the industry.
    The only thing I find surprising is that Frances allowed her mask to slip
    Hopefully the events of the last few days spell the "END" of any meaningful role for this pathetic creature in politics at the highest level

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    The full article........

    http://michaelmcdowell.ie/minister-f...n-is-shameful/

    Minister Fitzgerald’s attempt to push Sexual Offences Bill through the Seanad in one afternoon is shameful


    On Wednesday the 15th of February at the old League of Nations building in Geneva, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) will be addressed by an Irish Government delegation which it is planned, at the time of writing, will be headed by Tanaiste Frances Fitzgerald, Minister for Justice and Equality.

    Minister Fitzgerald hopes to be in a position to inform CEDAW that she has just secured the passage by the Irish Parliament of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill 2015.

    As the title of the Bill suggests, the Bill was initiated in the Oireachtas prior to the last General Election. In fact, it was initiated in the pre-election Seanad. The current Seanad is composed as to 80% of its membership of people who have never debated any part of this legislation. Moreover, the current Seanad is one in which the Government has the support of only one-third of its members.

    Put shortly, four out of five members of the current Seanad have never been consulted about the contents of this Bill and have never had an opportunity, as they would with ordinary legislation, to consider the principles and policy behind the Bill and to consider its detailed provisions.

    In these circumstances, her attempt to push the Bill through the newly formed Seanad in an afternoon, as the Minister hopes to do, is nothing short of scandalous. If the Minister wants to report “progress” at the CEDAW hearing in Geneva, there is nothing at all to stop her from saying that she has made significant progress in its passage through our parliament.

    There is no excuse for truncating a proper consideration of this Bill by the newly elected Senators simply based on Minister Fitzgerald’s desire to have her trophy legislation on show in Geneva on Wednesday.

    There is no reason, either, for the Seanad to abandon its constitutional role as scrutineer of important legislation so as to embellish the Minister’s presentation at CEDAW in the manner planned by her.

    One of the most remarkable elements of the Bill is the proposal to decriminalise offering a person’s services as a prostitute to other people in a public place while at the same time making it a criminal offence for any person to pay a prostitute for sex wherever the sex takes place, whether in private or in public.

    The Government’s Bill proposes to criminalise any person who “pays, gives, offers or promises to pay or give a person (including a prostitute) money or any other form of remuneration or consideration for the purposes of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute”.

    Many people do not know that it has never been an offence for a woman or a man to pay any other person to engage in sexual activity. The “oldest profession” has never been criminal in itself. Acting as a pimp, or “living off immoral earnings” of prostitution, has always been an offence. Running a brothel (i.e. a place where more than one prostitute offers sexual services) is likewise criminal. But the law, as things stand, does not criminalise a man or a woman for engaging in sexual activity for reward. If Part 4 of Minister Fitzgerald’s Bill is passed, prostitutes will no longer commit a criminal offence by offering their services in public to passers-by.

    Under Minister Fitzgerald’s new regime, a prostitute will be able to loiter in public places offering sexual services without any fear of being prosecuted by a policeman for such activity. But if some poor divil, likely with drink, agrees to have sex with a prostitute for money or money’s worth, he or she will be liable to be publicly prosecuted in the criminal courts, socially disgraced, quite likely dismissed from employment, and conferred with a lifelong criminal record.

    The new Bill will, therefore, mean that prostitutes may only be moved on by members of an Garda Síochána in streets or public places, and if they comply with such a direction, will commit no offence. But anyone, man or woman, who pays anybody else any money for what is termed “sexual activity” in any circumstance no matter how private, will commit a criminal offence.

    We are entering a crazy new parallel universe in which prostitutes can solicit or importune other people in streets or public places without criminal liability but their customers, no matter where the sexual activity takes place, will be liable to be hauled as criminals before the courts.

    By the way, the Bill says “sexual activity” means any activity which a reasonable person would consider of its nature to be sexual, having regard to the activity itself or the circumstances in which it occurs.

    If decriminalisation of importuning people by prostitutes is a good idea, and many might think it is, the question arises as to why Minister Fitzgerald does not simply propose a simple repeal of the importuning offence.

    But the new Bill is a blackmailer’s charter. A prostitute’s customer suddenly becomes a criminal while the prostitute is free to roam the streets and public houses importuning passers-by to be his or her customers.

    It is not generally known that in the United Kingdom at any rate even third level students engage from time to time in prostitution with a view to supplementing their student income. The classical prostitute loitering under a lamppost, like Lily Marlene, is by no means typical of the modern model of sex worker. Men and women offer to engage privately in sex, sometimes as “escorts”, sometimes as “rent boys”, without any public dimension to their activities.

    Sadly, the draftsmen of Minister Fitzgerald’s poorly thought-out legislation have made a classical “bloomer”. The new offence of paying for sex, a summary offence proposed by Minister Fitzgerald, ignores a centuries old provision of our criminal law to be found in Section 22 of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1851, as extended by the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1914.

    This Act provides: “Every person who shall aid, abet, counsel or procure the commission of any offence which is or shall be punishable on summary conviction, shall be liable to be proceeded against and convicted for the same, either together with the principal offender, or before or after his conviction …”

    This means in future that a prostitute who agrees to take money for sexual activity, wherever it takes place, “aids and abets” the commission of the offence by the prostitute’s customer, and is liable to be charged and convicted in the same manner as the customer will be.

    Ironically, for the first time in centuries, women prostitutes will now be liable to be charged and convicted for taking money for sexual activity even where the activity takes place in private. Far from decriminalising the activities of male and female prostitutes, as the Bill pretends to do, it extends criminal liability for the first time to acts of prostitution committed in private by a prostitute, male or female.

    The Bill has many other important provisions, including new provisions as to the meaning of consent in sexual crime.

    Unfortunately, because of the need for Minister Fitzgerald to bring a trophy to her CEDAW meeting in Geneva, the Seanad is being asked to enact this legislation in an afternoon when 80% of its members have never considered or debated any of the provisions in the Bill.

    This is shameful and should not happen.

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