It took 3 years after WW2 for the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany to be put into action. So Ireland should have been patient and would have had a Home Rule parliament by 1920 or 1921 I reckon. But without the negative influence and power of the Catholic Church. Now what kind of an Ireland would we have had...Originally Posted by dob
The British establishment of the time had as much enthusiasm for Irish home rule as they would have had for Indian independence in the 1920s-ie zero.
The Catholic church had risen as a power long before 1916-21.
It gained its authority post famine especially and was seen by a lot of Irish at the time as a power that favoured them far more than foreigners in Westminster.
India and Africa are largely continuing on their own trajectories and cultures.
Anything that happened in Ireland would have had no , or only a passing influence on them.Indeed the British influence on them is that railways were built and English left as a Lingua Franca and maybe not so much else.
Last edited by nonpareil; 24-05-15 at 19:47. Reason: replying to post #71 not the one quoted.
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I wouldn't be so dismissive of the foundation of the Irish Free State, it was a genuine victory over the imperialism of the time. People were more pious then and that was bound to be reflective in the state. Also the 'special position' of the Catholic Church in the 1937 constitution was a statement of fact as the people had a greater loyalty to the church than the state. However DeValera did not make the Catholic Church the state religion (remember England Norway Denmark and Sweden had and still have state churches). Also it gave recognition to the Protestant churches and significantly the Jewish religion, at a time when Nazi Germany saw the Jews as sub human.
Could Ireland have done better? Sure, maybe if home rule was granted in the 1880's progress could have been made, but the irresponsible whipping up of unionist fears ruined that.
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I think Ireland should be proud of how many counties voted majority yes. It wasn't a case of little steps, it was one huge step forward.
I thank the goodness and the grace,A helpful summary of events from an Irish perspective
Unfortunately displaying a typical Irish victim mentality - the Irish yesterday showed themselves to be courageous, taking control of their destiny. Such a pity this was not in evidence earlier....
Mistakes and arrogance were as evident in the Irish position as in the British... And I argue led to a settlement that was the worst possible outcome for Ireland, and one that as a country we are still paying the price for today.
Just imagine the impossibility of a Unionist militia resisting home rule with British forces in Ireland enforcing home rule as the will of the democratically elected Westminster Government. Unionists fighting the forces they were meant to be loyal to?
And the old story Unionist position in mainland UK forever weakened by the rise of the Labour Party and the introduction of universal suffrage.
Which on my birth hath smiled.
And made me in these Christian days
A Godly English child.
This kind of soppiness is what informs an English view of history.
They have their own type of propaganda or historical myopia that a Russian, a Chinese or an American can have.History is seen through the prism of their own culture only.
Unionism was well prepared to fight to resist home rule No British government would have been prepared to quell Unionist objections to Home Rule by force -whether Tory or Labour.To suggest otherwise is delusional. Indeed there was a British army mutiny in the Curragh ,Kildare, to make the point they would never March on Ulster to impose Home Rule.Irish home rule was always likely to end in partition.
Had Ireland remained in the UK, likely it would be another stagnating area , economically like much of Scotland, Wales and the North of England, and without ever having had the benefit of the heavy industry, once in those areas.
As an example of English historical delusion, most English will not know that Richard the lionheart spoke no English, was a French speaker, disliked England and spent little of his time there.
English will have no concept that the term concentration camp first referred to where British authorities herded Boer civilians into during the Boer war.Maybe 20,000 then died in such camps of disease and neglect.
Nor will English know of their country's ruthless suppression of uprisings in Kenya or Malaysia, following their time honoured methods in Ireland.
The average Englishman's understanding of history is sketchy at best and overly coloured by his background and upbringing.
And forget this bullshit of an Irish victim mentality.
Only one constituency (Roscommon- South Leitrim) voted no, and then only by about 2%.
I refer you to the epic Monty Python sketch "what did the Romans ever do for us". Easy to point the finger at supposed failings without acknowledging the mighty good that was done.
No one or no nation is perfect, that I readily admit.
But the sooner that Modern Ireland accepts that 1916 was a miserly and cowardly rebellion and in no way deserves to be commemorated 100 years later, the better for all of us.
One British army commander in the Curragh did not constitute overall British policy on the issue of dealing with a potential Unionist insurrection against Irish Home Rule.
What the Irish, to their detriment, can never get their head around is the extreme constitutional crisis that would have arisen out of the failure to put Home Rule into effect in all 32 Irish counties had they only been given the chance in 1920-21.
The British army, in choosing to disobey the orders of Westminster, would have set Britain on an entirely different path that few in Britain would have have countenanced or permitted. This would essentially have effected a military coup d'état and over throw of the monarchy as the Crown-in-Parliament. As the oldest democracy, the mother parliament and the home of the Magna Carta, I just cannot see that ever having happened.
Therefore Ireland subjected itself by choice, may be through impatience, to 50 years of effective rule by the Catholic Church. And you don't need me to rehearse the glorious list of achievements achieved in that time by that institution.
I have written and deleted my response now 3 times as i try to get my view down and i am going to simply say what a ridiculous statement,insulting to peoples memories and in my view can only be founded on ignorance.whether you agree with the rising or not they gave their lives believing in a free independant ireland and they deserve respect and rememberence.
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