Peaceful Epileptic Protester Has Head Dragged Along Ground By 'Guards'!

[Lara Mills]

Lara, it would be a very different board if each poster replied to every aspect of every posting.

If you did, you might actually understand the point I am trying to make At the moment, you are missing parts out to try and better your own argument.

There are several points I am trying to make, the first of which is that it is difficult to move someone who is having a fit. It isn't as simple as:

NOT DRAGGING HIM ACROSS THE GROUND BY HIS HEAD?

FFS

You can see the gards trying to lift him and they are struggling because of the unpredictable way his body is moving. They should have more assistance with it, but they don't. Not from other gards or from the other protesters.

From watching the video multiple times, it seems that they felt he was being difficult and then, when they realised that he was actually having a seizure, left him alone, gave him space, and put him in the position he needed to be in, as you've said they have been trained to do:

As every gard learns in his first-aid training, you do not move the person unless it is unavoidable. You clear their airway and roll them into the "recovery" position, if possible. Apart from that you just give them plenty of air and reassure them.

Trying to put someone having a fit in the recovery position is difficult. Reassuring them doesn't always work unless you actually know the person. Often it can aggravate the situation, as I've seen.

What I'm saying is that, yes, it could have been dealt with better, but I don't see this as brutality. It did take a while for them to acknowledge that this wasn't an act of violence from the man and was actually a fit, but when they did they acted accordingly.

From reading your posts, it isn't clear if you wanted them to continue clearing the road or tending to the man having the seizure. As you've pointed out that there weren't enough gards to deal with the situation, which is better?

I still believe that moving him was the best action at the time, given the brief amount of knowledge they seemed to have on the situation. If they'd have left him, people would be crying negligence for leaving a fitting man in the middle of a road.

[rubberlover]

There are no winners here. But at the end of the day, whilst its everyone's right to protest, this should be done by showing respect for everyone. No one has the right to block a road, or impede people using a road or footpath. I condemn what is happening Gaza as much as the next , but I can't be a hypocrite and say its okay for these protesters to behave in the mob like way they did. The Garda, despite the goading and heckling, and individuals looking for a reaction, behaved with restraint. Remember Garda are human beings, who no doubt get frightened and concerned for their own safety. All it takes is one nutter to pull a knife or weapon and use it, all in the name of "PEACEFUL" protest. Also why did they choose the American embassy, when the real protagonists are the Israeli government and military. The best way I feel to protest is by everyone boycotting goods supplied by Israeli companies and maybe boycott Israeli businesses here and worldwide until they (Israel) sit down and agree a cessation to this totally unjustified actions in Gaza. Its not so long ago that we had unrest in this country, carried out by a few, but whose actions impacted on all Irish people either working or when they traveled to the UK. Not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas etc, just like not all Irish people supported the IRA in recent times.

[joggon]

The standards for joining the gardai was lowered a few years ago and definitely it shows . I hope the apologists don't suffer the treatment that this man did .

[JAMESCORK]

So that's the new standard for policing, is it?

If you don't see a reddening of the face it is acceptable to drag a man across a road with his head dragging across the ground?

No... but I am pointing out that if the mans face had hit the ground severely there would at least have been a mark. The man was kicking out. The Garda to the rear nearly missed a kick to the face and lost his grip causing the mans upper body to hit the road. As soon as they realised his head was to the ground they stopped and lifted him by his belt.

Ah, so manhandling a person in that way is ok so long as he isn't having a seizure. Got it.

The only violence I saw on that clip was from the gardai and directed at the protestors. I saw nothing to suggest the reverse.

The Gardaí had asked people to clear the road. This man refused and resisted. He is clearly seen to wriggle and kick out. Looking back over the footage it may well be he was having a fit. Did the Gardaí know this at this time or did the think they had a violent protestor.

Once they realised that they had brutalised an innocent and unwell man, and were being filmed, they stopped physically manhandling the protestors. If they had acted correctly, as you claim, why did they stop clearing the road?

I suggest the Gardaí knew they were being filmed from a very early stage. At no time did they attempt to stop the filming.

There were sufficient numbers of gards present to both assist the epileptic man and continue to clear the road. So, why did they stop clearing the way?

Because they knew that they were in the wrong, that's why!

Why did they try to prevent the man's friends (perhaps family?) assisting him?

A garda is quite clearly heard saying "Would you ask your pals to step back please. I have no problem with one or two".

Because they wanted to control what happened to him next.

As in, make sure he got into the ambulance that they called perhaps

I would love it if you could please point out some examples of the gards being polite to the protestors.

19 seconds in as they were attempting to apprehend ther man who is not resisting violently on the road a Garda is heard saying "take it easy, take it easy"

39 seconds in the apprehending Garda is asking the man to "relax, relax"

1 minute in garda are saying "stand back PLEASE"

2.22 minutes "Sir, onto the footpath please..."

3.32 Garda says... "stand back off the road please, I have asked you twice..."

5.24 attending Garda asks abusive onlooker ... "Just be quite, its not help with everybody talking, Just be quiet"

[Jiberjabber]

There are no winners here. But at the end of the day, whilst its everyone's right to protest, this should be done by showing respect for everyone. No one has the right to block a road, or impede people using a road or footpath. I condemn what is happening Gaza as much as the next , but I can't be a hypocrite and say its okay for these protesters to behave in the mob like way they did. The Garda, despite the goading and heckling, and individuals looking for a reaction, behaved with restraint. Remember Garda are human beings, who no doubt get frightened and concerned for their own safety. All it takes is one nutter to pull a knife or weapon and use it, all in the name of "PEACEFUL" protest. Also why did they choose the American embassy, when the real protagonists are the Israeli government and military. The best way I feel to protest is by everyone boycotting goods supplied by Israeli companies and maybe boycott Israeli businesses here and worldwide until they (Israel) sit down and agree a cessation to this totally unjustified actions in Gaza. Its not so long ago that we had unrest in this country, carried out by a few, but whose actions impacted on all Irish people either working or when they traveled to the UK. Not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas etc, just like not all Irish people supported the IRA in recent times.

I pretty much agree with all you've said here.

I think the reasoning behind the protest being staged outside the American embassy is because of the unquestioning support that the US has constantly given Israel. More and more people are waking up to the fact that the US are the enabling force in this ongoing conflict.

[Me4711]

In fairness, with this post you have set a new high-point for absolute b0ll0x.

When restraining or forcibily moving a NON-VIOLENT protestor, the act of dragging them away with their head scraping the ground is extremely unprofessional and completely unnecessary.

Staff in every mental hospital and prison are trained to move people who become violent safely, and do so on a daily basis. It requires a properly delivered training, a safety mind-set and team work. In other words it is easy to get right if you want to.

I love the way you characterise the comments of the other protestors as "self-serving" but do not comment on actions of gardai, once the guy begins to have a seizure and they realise that they are on camera. The tender and quite beautiful moment when a gard lovingly places a hand on the man's torso in a gesture of tenderness nearly brought a tear to the eye. But then I recalled the image of the self-same gards dragging the man across the ground with his head bouncing on the concrete a few moments later.

You also make reference to "the crowd". Perhaps I am missing something but the number of people I saw on the clip would hardly constitute a crowd. I've had more people in my house for dinner.

I wondered for a while how a person could view that clip and then write a post supporting the gardai.

Then I noticed your spelling, punctuation and sentence-structure. Are you a gard yourself?

Hi "Piggi" no Im not a Garda but I see from Ur post that I would be wasting my time trying to "Argue the Toss" with you U like the Crowd (ie more than one person been a group etc) U seem to Selectively see what suits U rather than the abstract & YES staff in hospitals etc are trained to deal effectively as they are trained SPECIFICALY to this area & Gardai/Police are traineed to deal with security situations especially when people refuse to OBAY DIRECTIONS from the Gardai (Law) .... Anyway I could go on & onn but I will leave there any more would be lost on you on Ur NARROW VIEW.

[naturis]

I see no brutality... I think the Gardaí acted effectively and fairly. We don't see what actually caused them to forcefully remove this man in the first place. I see no injury to the mans face.

are you for real???? thats the way you would apprehend someone even if they are having a fit

[naturis]

Gee, when you put it that way I guess maybe the gardai really were looking out for the poor guy's well-being.

As you say, what were the other options?

Hmmm .....

Oh, yes!

I've got it!

I've thought of an alternative!

How about NOT DRAGGING HIM ACROSS THE GROUND BY HIS HEAD?

FFS

poor guards sure there was 6 there I think they needed more help to carry him properly must be the great training they get to ,oh and the way there so helpful with traffic tickets if your a young drunk women seen it before my eyes their fucking as bad as the gangs

[naturis]

I notice you've also left out the rest of my post explaining why they might have done what they did.

As I explained in that post, it is very difficult to move someone who is having a seizure. I've tried before and it's difficult - especially when you are in a situation like the police were. When I tried it, there was me and a friend trying to move another friend. We were in a kitchen at the time, and we just had to move him away from the counters into the middle of the floor. Only a few feet, but it was damn hard.

It seems to me that you are suggesting they leave him in the middle of a road, where protesters were crossing (and cars might come by, if the road isn't closed), and do nothing about it.

Wouldn't people then cry out that they don't give a shit about people if they let a man have a fit in the road?

there was alot of guards there how many would you need to move him then ?? or maybe if one just had the brains to hold his head

[naturis]

If you did, you might actually understand the point I am trying to make At the moment, you are missing parts out to try and better your own argument.

There are several points I am trying to make, the first of which is that it is difficult to move someone who is having a fit. It isn't as simple as:



You can see the gards trying to lift him and they are struggling because of the unpredictable way his body is moving. They should have more assistance with it, but they don't. Not from other gards or from the other protesters.

From watching the video multiple times, it seems that they felt he was being difficult and then, when they realised that he was actually having a seizure, left him alone, gave him space, and put him in the position he needed to be in, as you've said they have been trained to do:



Trying to put someone having a fit in the recovery position is difficult. Reassuring them doesn't always work unless you actually know the person. Often it can aggravate the situation, as I've seen.

What I'm saying is that, yes, it could have been dealt with better, but I don't see this as brutality. It did take a while for them to acknowledge that this wasn't an act of violence from the man and was actually a fit, but when they did they acted accordingly.

From reading your posts, it isn't clear if you wanted them to continue clearing the road or tending to the man having the seizure. As you've pointed out that there weren't enough gards to deal with the situation, which is better?

I still believe that moving him was the best action at the time, given the brief amount of knowledge they seemed to have on the situation. If they'd have left him, people would be crying negligence for leaving a fitting man in the middle of a road.

whatever long winded way you put it they dragged his head along the road