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Thread: The Swedish Model

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by samlad View Post
    Let's discuss it here, as the topic seems to be fragmented in the general chat section.

    The Irish Government is entertaining the idea of implementing the Swedish Model, that is the client will be arrested for buying sex, but it will still be legal for escorts to sell it. Pimping, brothel keeping and (of course) trafficking will still be illegal.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    Great idea Samlad, especially if our invited guests from Ruhama ever find the courage and integrity to arrive and make themselves aware of who a large proportion of sex workers actually are and what they actually think.

    I default to looking on sex work purely as a matter of economics, from the point of view of the sex worker, and it is all very simple.

    During a recession, like every other entertainment industry, the market for the sex industry shrinks, at the same time as the numbers of crisis and survival sex workers increase dramatically.

    For sex workers, this means that prices and incomes drop, and like any other self employed person, their working life becomes far more stressful. Meanwhile the banks, building societies, utilities credit cards and Tesco all expect to be paid just the same.

    So what do you think happens if you criminalise the buyer?
    • Many women are getting into sex work for the first time because there is no other work - so you can forget that for starters.
    • E-I (and similar) will be getting a lot of new advertisers from other sectors trying to work around the law or "trafficking" themselves out of Ireland on tour through their sister sites.
    • If they had the integrity, credibility and moral resources, which they do not, Ruhama do not have the material resources to offer and real assistance to hundreds of women denied their income from sex work. Most of their resources are spent on salaries, premises and lobbying against the wishes and best interests of sex workers. What happened in the 90s recession was that they offered daytime art and personal development classes to women who still had to go out and struggle to find enough business to make a living...not for a few weeks, or months, but for years, feeding them false hope after false hope to keep the claws in and conditioning them to Ruhama's ideology, false memory syndrome (at that time confined to childhood, but now applied to clients and everyday life) and internalised prejudice against themselves for the sex work they still have to do, every step of the way. The psychological and emotional cruelty of it still staggers me to this day, and as Ruhama are so fascinated to know what I have against them so they can pretend to change it, *THAT* would be the biggest part.
    • Real women will start to lose their livelihoods, homes and families, with no honest "last resort" to turn to to avert the crisis. With their children at stake, I am betting the best (because they are strong enough to abandon personal morality for the sake of their families) and the worst of them will turn to real crime. Some of them will not get away with it, and there you have family after family, that could have been growing and developing in a healthy, nurturing environment, towards the same kind of safe, bright future all the NGO bunnies got to take for granted, destroyed, regulated to sink estates, drug abuse, welfare dependency and crime.


    That's reality...THAT is what has me putting in a full time job to fighting this cr*p at my own expense...I cannot live with knowing what will happen to a fair amount of sex workers and their families if "the Swedish Model" happens here at this time...and that fate will not distinguish between women who want to sell sex and women who have to sell sex, except in the that women who *have* to sell sex will usually be hit first and suffer the most.

    ...and all because the ladies (of Ruhama) love to impose control...not to mention a way to increase their funding...


    But there are issues beyond that (as if there need to be...like E-I I tend to have a "ladies first, last and foremost mindset).

    If ye lads were "rapists" then, frankly, the sooner everybody woke up and realised that the better...but there is just one tiny problem. You aren't rapists, and trying to indoctrinate people to see anything as something it is not is a form of psychological abuse called "Gaslighting" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting .

    There is a lot of (understandable) focus on how ye lads feel about that, but beyond your feelings, that degree of misrepresentation also has a psychologically damaging affect on the rest of our society, and how we perceive abuse and gender issues...and abuse and gender issues can be such ambiguous things that the last thing we, as a society, need is to permit them to be deliberately distorted.

    Something you can see evidence of around you is that this campaign is already beginning to distort the principle of sexual consent. The campaign is cornering sex workers into counteracting it by enthusiastically claiming to enjoy every aspect of their work...but that is not what sexual consent is about.

    Bluntly, is is absolutely nobody's business how any person feels about sex in any context. Consent is all that matters and consent is about whether a person voluntarily contracts to have sex, not why. What will happen to the law if rape ceases to be a matter of expressed consent between adults and is tried on third party assumptions about feelings?

    The standard pedophile defence seems to be to claim that the child enjoyed it.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBelleThatcher View Post
    Great idea Samlad, especially if our invited guests from Ruhama ever find the courage and integrity to arrive and make themselves aware of who a large proportion of sex workers actually are and what they actually think.

    I default to looking on sex work purely as a matter of economics, from the point of view of the sex worker, and it is all very simple.

    During a recession, like every other entertainment industry, the market for the sex industry shrinks, at the same time as the numbers of crisis and survival sex workers increase dramatically.

    For sex workers, this means that prices and incomes drop, and like any other self employed person, their working life becomes far more stressful. Meanwhile the banks, building societies, utilities credit cards and Tesco all expect to be paid just the same.

    So what do you think happens if you criminalise the buyer?
    • Many women are getting into sex work for the first time because there is no other work - so you can forget that for starters.
    • E-I (and similar) will be getting a lot of new advertisers from other sectors trying to work around the law or "trafficking" themselves out of Ireland on tour through their sister sites.
    • If they had the integrity, credibility and moral resources, which they do not, Ruhama do not have the material resources to offer and real assistance to hundreds of women denied their income from sex work. Most of their resources are spent on salaries, premises and lobbying against the wishes and best interests of sex workers. What happened in the 90s recession was that they offered daytime art and personal development classes to women who still had to go out and struggle to find enough business to make a living...not for a few weeks, or months, but for years, feeding them false hope after false hope to keep the claws in and conditioning them to Ruhama's ideology, false memory syndrome (at that time confined to childhood, but now applied to clients and everyday life) and internalised prejudice against themselves for the sex work they still have to do, every step of the way. The psychological and emotional cruelty of it still staggers me to this day, and as Ruhama are so fascinated to know what I have against them so they can pretend to change it, *THAT* would be the biggest part.
    • Real women will start to lose their livelihoods, homes and families, with no honest "last resort" to turn to to avert the crisis. With their children at stake, I am betting the best (because they are strong enough to abandon personal morality for the sake of their families) and the worst of them will turn to real crime. Some of them will not get away with it, and there you have family after family, that could have been growing and developing in a healthy, nurturing environment, towards the same kind of safe, bright future all the NGO bunnies got to take for granted, destroyed, regulated to sink estates, drug abuse, welfare dependency and crime.


    That's reality...THAT is what has me putting in a full time job to fighting this cr*p at my own expense...I cannot live with knowing what will happen to a fair amount of sex workers and their families if "the Swedish Model" happens here at this time...and that fate will not distinguish between women who want to sell sex and women who have to sell sex, except in the that women who *have* to sell sex will usually be hit first and suffer the most.

    ...and all because the ladies (of Ruhama) love to impose control...not to mention a way to increase their funding...


    But there are issues beyond that (as if there need to be...like E-I I tend to have a "ladies first, last and foremost mindset).

    If ye lads were "rapists" then, frankly, the sooner everybody woke up and realised that the better...but there is just one tiny problem. You aren't rapists, and trying to indoctrinate people to see anything as something it is not is a form of psychological abuse called "Gaslighting" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting .

    There is a lot of (understandable) focus on how ye lads feel about that, but beyond your feelings, that degree of misrepresentation also has a psychologically damaging affect on the rest of our society, and how we perceive abuse and gender issues...and abuse and gender issues can be such ambiguous things that the last thing we, as a society, need is to permit them to be deliberately distorted.

    Something you can see evidence of around you is that this campaign is already beginning to distort the principle of sexual consent. The campaign is cornering sex workers into counteracting it by enthusiastically claiming to enjoy every aspect of their work...but that is not what sexual consent is about.

    Bluntly, is is absolutely nobody's business how any person feels about sex in any context. Consent is all that matters and consent is about whether a person voluntarily contracts to have sex, not why. What will happen to the law if rape ceases to be a matter of expressed consent between adults and is tried on third party assumptions about feelings?

    The standard pedophile defence seems to be to claim that the child enjoyed it.
    Brilliant post bella .: doc
    Never mistake kindness for weakness .: doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBelleThatcher View Post
    Great idea Samlad, especially if our invited guests from Ruhama ever find the courage and integrity to arrive and make themselves aware of who a large proportion of sex workers actually are and what they actually think.

    I default to looking on sex work purely as a matter of economics, from the point of view of the sex worker, and it is all very simple.

    During a recession, like every other entertainment industry, the market for the sex industry shrinks, at the same time as the numbers of crisis and survival sex workers increase dramatically.

    For sex workers, this means that prices and incomes drop, and like any other self employed person, their working life becomes far more stressful. Meanwhile the banks, building societies, utilities credit cards and Tesco all expect to be paid just the same.

    So what do you think happens if you criminalise the buyer?
    • Many women are getting into sex work for the first time because there is no other work - so you can forget that for starters.
    • E-I (and similar) will be getting a lot of new advertisers from other sectors trying to work around the law or "trafficking" themselves out of Ireland on tour through their sister sites.
    • If they had the integrity, credibility and moral resources, which they do not, Ruhama do not have the material resources to offer and real assistance to hundreds of women denied their income from sex work. Most of their resources are spent on salaries, premises and lobbying against the wishes and best interests of sex workers. What happened in the 90s recession was that they offered daytime art and personal development classes to women who still had to go out and struggle to find enough business to make a living...not for a few weeks, or months, but for years, feeding them false hope after false hope to keep the claws in and conditioning them to Ruhama's ideology, false memory syndrome (at that time confined to childhood, but now applied to clients and everyday life) and internalised prejudice against themselves for the sex work they still have to do, every step of the way. The psychological and emotional cruelty of it still staggers me to this day, and as Ruhama are so fascinated to know what I have against them so they can pretend to change it, *THAT* would be the biggest part.
    • Real women will start to lose their livelihoods, homes and families, with no honest "last resort" to turn to to avert the crisis. With their children at stake, I am betting the best (because they are strong enough to abandon personal morality for the sake of their families) and the worst of them will turn to real crime. Some of them will not get away with it, and there you have family after family, that could have been growing and developing in a healthy, nurturing environment, towards the same kind of safe, bright future all the NGO bunnies got to take for granted, destroyed, regulated to sink estates, drug abuse, welfare dependency and crime.


    That's reality...THAT is what has me putting in a full time job to fighting this cr*p at my own expense...I cannot live with knowing what will happen to a fair amount of sex workers and their families if "the Swedish Model" happens here at this time...and that fate will not distinguish between women who want to sell sex and women who have to sell sex, except in the that women who *have* to sell sex will usually be hit first and suffer the most.

    ...and all because the ladies (of Ruhama) love to impose control...not to mention a way to increase their funding...


    But there are issues beyond that (as if there need to be...like E-I I tend to have a "ladies first, last and foremost mindset).

    If ye lads were "rapists" then, frankly, the sooner everybody woke up and realised that the better...but there is just one tiny problem. You aren't rapists, and trying to indoctrinate people to see anything as something it is not is a form of psychological abuse called "Gaslighting" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting .

    There is a lot of (understandable) focus on how ye lads feel about that, but beyond your feelings, that degree of misrepresentation also has a psychologically damaging affect on the rest of our society, and how we perceive abuse and gender issues...and abuse and gender issues can be such ambiguous things that the last thing we, as a society, need is to permit them to be deliberately distorted.

    Something you can see evidence of around you is that this campaign is already beginning to distort the principle of sexual consent. The campaign is cornering sex workers into counteracting it by enthusiastically claiming to enjoy every aspect of their work...but that is not what sexual consent is about.

    Bluntly, is is absolutely nobody's business how any person feels about sex in any context. Consent is all that matters and consent is about whether a person voluntarily contracts to have sex, not why. What will happen to the law if rape ceases to be a matter of expressed consent between adults and is tried on third party assumptions about feelings?

    The standard pedophile defence seems to be to claim that the child enjoyed it.
    Great post, LBT. I've highlighted this section for good reason; implanting false memories may seem like a whimsical concept, but it is very, very real and does affect peoples' lives.

    For people not familiar with the concept of false memories, please watch this video (and part two):



    Psychology studies of false memories I have seen are synonymous with religious organisations.

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    Just as an interesting PS...Ruhama's sockpuppet has just been "published" on Melissa Farley's site (in case you are wondering who she is, she is, arguably, the "mutha", and I use the word in it's broadest sense, of all this distorted thinking).

    If you have nothing better to do over the weekend, take a look. Imagine you know nothing at all about sex work, and you have every reason to believe every word she says:
    http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/...urvivors_view/

    Even if you take every word she says as gospel truth there is something very, very important missing. Perhaps *the* most important thing of all:

    What will happen to the desperate person if they cannot use sex work to survive?

    What do you honestly think happens to anyone when they run out of ways to survive?

    And never mind the elephant, that would be the pink and woolly mammoth sitting in the middle of the room of life itself.

    I have a family ring that was given to me recently to "sell if things get too bad".

    If things do get too bad, and you offer to buy that ring from me, for a good, freely agreed price...would that make you a thief?

    Let's get our priorities straight again. Whether we can survive is many times more important than whether we sell sex. But this article leaves the desperate hanging like so many voiceless eggs who must, perforce, be broken for their personal omelette to be made.

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    And part two of the video:


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    The false memory thing can get far more complex.

    There is a variation on false memory syndrome where someone who has really been abused unconsciously transfers the memory of that abuse onto an innocent party at some later time.

    Our unconscious minds are very, very efficient at protecting us, but not always very scrupulous about it, so this may well happen when the victim finds the abuser more intimidating than the abuse itself so that the unconscious mind transfers the original abuse to an innocent and benign individual in order to avoid being too afraid to stop repressing it and process it.

    There is a case I know of (daren't name it or, never mind Ruhama, we will get the hounds of hell plus lawyers landing for a chat ) where a woman vacillated between a "fatal attraction" type pursuit of anyone she perceived to be a benign authority figure with some degree of celebrity (always ending in an obviously factitious accusation of abuse, some of which were quite high profile), and, at other times blatantly courting abuse and abusers. She made false accusations of every kind against everybody, including family members...for decades...it was her way of life.

    Pretty obvious she was just a messed up, dangerous little fantasist...until her original and actual abuser, confessed as a very elderly man...

    A lot of "survivor porn" seems strikingly similar.

    Back in the day ('93) Ruhama (and, by extension, their international compadres) were mad keen to prove that the main reason women were in sex work was because of childhood sexual abuse...because then, that was the fashion (check out a movie with Steisand called "Nuts" some time...it's excellent, and if you have more than one braincell, it's message is far more complex and valid than "child sexual abuse makes women sell sex"!). They were quite insistent and invasive about it, always glossing over the various levels of economic imperatives in sex work in favour of it. They did a feck of a lot of damage they have never acknowledged or apologised for that way.

    In many ways it was just an extension of the mentality of the laundries that claimed to protect we weak women from our own sexuality...

    Women got the pill, and sexual rights and nobody was going to buy into that invasive nonsense any more...so they moved on to claiming to protect us from the a fictional compulsive reaction to sometimes factitious childhood sexual abuse...

    Is this the next stage, where vulnerable women are groomed and conditioned to project pre-existing abuse on to anyone who was a benign part of their own constructive attempts to get past and rise above it? As an excuse to claim to protect women from non-existant present abuse?
    Last edited by LaBelleThatcher; 01-06-12 at 14:36.

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    I'm sorry if this sounds defeatist, but Ruhama will win. It's absolutely guaranteed. There is no way on this Earth that an irish housewife with a vote, or a politician playing to his constituents, is ever going to believe that some women are genuine independent escorts, or that some clients (like me) visit escorts to relax in intimate company. Education of the general public on this issue is impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mousey View Post
    I'm sorry if this sounds defeatist, but Ruhama will win. It's absolutely guaranteed. There is no way on this Earth that an irish housewife with a vote, or a politician playing to his constituents, is ever going to believe that some women are genuine independent escorts, or that some clients (like me) visit escorts to relax in intimate company. Education of the general public on this issue is impossible.
    Don't underestimate ordinary people Mousey...they may not vote *for* us, but you might be surprised how many will vote against the insult to their intelligence the various deceits practised upon them by these organisations represent.

    I think you would also be surprised how many women (just like us, after all) find it almost impossible to believe that 21st century woman can be coerced into anything in large numbers and find the suggestion that they could as insulting as we do.

    ...as for the rest...where your eyes do not see it, all women are raised with a similar set of fundamental truths, one of which is that ye lads will do just about *ANYTHING* for sex, quite blindly at times, and paying for it is only the least of it!

    Society hasn't even fully reversed the perception of ye as innocent babes being lead astray by "bold, brassy Jezebels" yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBelleThatcher View Post
    Don't underestimate ordinary people Mousey...they may not vote *for* us, but you might be surprised how many will vote against the insult to their intelligence the various deceits practised upon them by these organisations represent.

    I think you would also be surprised how many women (just like us, after all) find it almost impossible to believe that 21st century woman can be coerced into anything in large numbers and find the suggestion that they could as insulting as we do.

    ...as for the rest...where your eyes do not see it, all women are raised with a similar set of fundamental truths, one of which is that ye lads will do just about *ANYTHING* for sex, quite blindly at times, and paying for it is only the least of it!

    Society hasn't even fully reversed the perception of ye as innocent babes being lead astray by "bold, brassy Jezebels" yet.
    You are living in Fantasy land.
    There is no 'surprise' factor, there is no mass support for Escorts, Pimps, Trafficked victims, Punters etc.....people don't give a fuck.
    They listen to the media, take it on board and get on with what is important in THEIR lives, to 'normal' people they don't care
    Do you not get this, their is no popularist surge coming for the downtrodden masses......those times are gone if they were ever here

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFussy View Post
    You are living in Fantasy land.
    There is no 'surprise' factor, there is no mass support for Escorts, Pimps, Trafficked victims, Punters etc.....people don't give a fuck.
    They listen to the media, take it on board and get on with what is important in THEIR lives, to 'normal' people they don't care
    Do you not get this, their is no popularist surge coming for the downtrodden masses......those times are gone if they were ever here
    You are so right, and yet, also, so wrong, at the same time...of course nobody who isn't directly affected gives a flying f*ck...but either way...

    There no "massed support" for "Turn Off the Red Light" either...nobody cares.

    This is an horrific recession, as a very small country we have a good chance of riding it out, but, the name of the game, for any politician is containment and damage limitation.

    Protecting and preserving and any every form of hope is a cornerstone of that.

    To preserve stability the one thing any government needs to avoid at all costs is a creating a bloc of people with nothing left to lose. Crack down on the sex industry in any real way and that is what will happen. Not so much in this sector, not immediately, but among the survival and crisis sex workers who, largely, turn to the streets to avert personal catastrophy.

    The single parents lobby are becoming increasingly militant at a frightening rate, any significant assault on the sex industry will only accelerate that...hammer the streetworkers and you will literally "light the blue touchpaper" on that barely contained tinderbox...and a domino effect begins.

    It will not happen, because no government is ever going to be daft enough to let it. It costs nothing to leave the sex industry in peace, or even facillitate it, and it plugs a hole in the dyke...simple as...

    This can be won.

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