Disgraceful Client Behaviour

[Lucy Chambers]

It's QPH. He wrote a long rant and signed off as QPH. But it has been deleted.

I am referring to gossip escort Bruno> I read the post by QPH.

[Bruno69]

I am referring to gossip escort Bruno> I read the post by QPH.

It was early, I was dazed and confused.

It was QPH after all but posted by mean whatever.

Sorry gossipescort only!!

[Patricia]

sporting reviews that are not fake sating that the girl is unhappy and dosnot want to be there

Just on this point, I have spoken to the managers and the reviews team about this, and there are procedures in place to investigate any review which could suggest the escort may be working against her will or otherwise in a bad situation. I understand it is not the case that we are publishing reviews like this, though I'm not saying it NEVER happens, of course sometimes a human error occurs and a review is not dealt with as it should be. We will be looking at our procedures here again in light of your feedback, but I don't think the situation is a bad as it sounded to me at first reading your feedback.

[Patricia]

That would be the Ad Teams job, if photo verification was up to par surely a quick scan would reveal she had a previous profile. I'm not disputing the fact E-I is the best escort site in Ireland and the UK but it's not without it's flaws either and the biggest one it has is rooting out fakes, I'm sure you catch a lot of them but as a client I can see first hand there are a lot you don't but as I said already surely there is a better way to weed them out and stop them from suspending their profile only to start afresh with a new one. Your team are holding all the cards and surely at this stage they should know how to play them..

There isn't software available to us so sophisticated it can automatically detect the same faces in verification photos. If you know of some we could deploy, please suggest, as I know you know your IT stuff. I don't doubt there is room for improvement here and I will address this with the Ad Staff are a forthcoming meeting, but I'm also aware it is often genuinely hard to match verification photos of the same person, especially as women often have different hair and make up on in photos etc.

[Patricia]

Re QPH, he is banned from here. Unfortunately we are unable to agree with him on some issues, so we can't allow him to do what he'd like to on E-I.

[carlos marvado]

I'm all for E-I doing what it can here, but we are a directory of escorts.

None of this is black and white.

Independent escorts working together can be deemed brothels.

I am not concerned about genuine independent escorts banding together to share accomodation and the associated costs and overheads and living expenses and for their own security. I have often posted here stating that I believe the current law regarding what constitutes a brothel endangers escorts by forcing them to work alone if they wish to stay within the law. As recent statistics which have been used by TOBL showed, most of those charged and convicted of brothel keeping were not pimps, agencies or traffickers, but escorts themselves. Most clients would probably favour a change to this law, as who wants to be called as a witness is a case against some escorts for brothel keeping?.......the client may have even been unaware that there was more than one escort using the apartment at the time.

Escorts supporting a husband or partner, can be deemed to be pimped by that person.

I have yet to read a newspaper report or article where an unemployed husband, or one who was on a meagre salary, or where the family had gotten into financial difficulties and the wife/partner went out to work as an escort to provide for the family or help them out of the financial crises, was charged with pimping her. In fact, I know of a married woman with a husband and child who started escorting so that the family could have a decent standard of living in Ireland, which the husband's salary would not have provided. She was caught up in one of these garda raids because she found herself sharing an apartment with other escorts while touring and was convicted under our archane brothel laws........there were no consequences for her husband. I think there is a major difference between a woman freely choosing this work in order to support herself, her husband/partner and children, and being forced into it against her will by a husband or partner. If there is coercion involved, she should seek help to up and leave the bastard.

I feel like some people here want E-I to step in and be judge and jury as to who here is independent and who isn't.

But how can we?

Clients have said themselves here all too recently that it is hard for clients to tell if an escort is independent or not even after meeting them and spending considerable time with them.

What magic skills do you think E-I has that we can tell if an advertiser is independent or not?

Do you want E-I to be like investigators of all escorts advertising here, interviewing each one and requiring identification and full details of how and where the escort will work in Ireland?

Or is is that you want E-I to "spot" if several escorts all advertise as Moldovan all at once or similar, and challenge those escorts? If yes, what do you think the result will be? Escorts get phone call from E-I, saying they can't all advertise as Moldovan, so escorts leave country? Or escorts get phone call from E-I, saying they can't all advertise as Moldovan, so escorts change nationality? Or do you want E-I to be harder, ban them from advertising? What do you think the result will be then? Escorts leave country following E-I ban or escorts take out new adverts with different photos etc, so E-I doesn't know it is the same escorts that were just banned from advertising?

Although I don't believe that E-I have any magic skills to distinguish between genuine independents, agency escorts, pimped escorts, or even trafficked escorts, neither do clients or other escorts who peruse the adverts. However, as another contributor to this thread already mentioned, clients and independent escorts who have taken the time and effort to be observant, have noticed profile similarities, movement patterns and even review patterns amongst sometimes large groups of supposedly "independent" escorts, which can only point to some level of organisation.......and a level of organisation which I would suggest, goes far beyond just a few escort friends banding together. Recent reports from NI and Romania back up the view that quite a few escorts are being brought here, accomodated, advertised and rotated from city to city and town to town in an organised fashion. Whether there was coercion involved thereby constituting trafficking would be up to the relevant police to investigate and the courts to determine.

However, there are a number of things that E-I could do to tighten up leaks in the vessel:

1. In relation to lifting photos from elsewhere and using them to deceive potential clients; if any member of this site, acting alone, can use software freely available to all on the internet, can check all photographs uploaded on E-I and elsewhere on a daily basis and determine if they have been taken from another site, then surely E-I with the IT and staff resources at it's disposal would be able to do this much more effectively. I would suggest that in such cases, which probably constitute copyright theft, an escorts adverting and posting profiles be suspended for one week. A second offence should lead to a permenant ban. Now before anybody says "sure they'll only creat a new profile", good!!...it might cost them an additional €100, or €250 if they advertise on a monthly basis, but it will teach them a lesson, and in any event, it means extra revenue for E-I.

2. It may very well be that the level of organisation involved includes registering many advertising profiles from the same laptop or from the same IP address. I'm not talking here about a few escort friends who live together and share a laptop from time to time, but when 10, 15, 20 or more escorts with profile content similarities and rotation similarities are having their advertisement profile uploaded from one dedicated IP address, then it would seem to be very difficult to apply the term "independent" to them. As E-I is already in a position to check out the IP addresses that members use to register their posting profiles and the IP addresses that they actually submit posts from, I don't see where the difficulty would lie in also checking out advisement profile registration IP addresses.

contd on next post.

[carlos marvado]

3. I have no issues with an escort's nationality or whether they state their correct nationality or not on their advertising profile, as I understand quite well why they may not wish to have too many correct details published on an escort site. However, certain nationalities require a visa to visit Ireland, and others even require a transit visa to pass through Ireland. Moldovans fall into both these visa categories........if they are in fact Moldovan, which given the amount of red tape and beaurocracy involved in getting a visa, I seriously doubt. Now I know that E-I have the verification system whereby escorts can sent a verification photo to E-I (which does not appear on their profile) and which confirms in as much as one can be certain, that the other photos submitted are genuinely of them. Now this can be taken even further. I know of a site in Norway that requires any escorts who wish to advertise there, to submit a copy of their passport data page by fax or email. This serves the purpose of checking the escorts true nationality, age (to ensure they are'nt under the legal age) and that they are the same person as in the photos submitted. Naturally none of this information appears on the advertisng profile. As regards the Moldovans, Nigerians etc. who need a valid visa, transit visa, residence stamp or work permit to work here or even be in the country, why not require them to submit that relevant documentation by fax or email also. The Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin produce lists of those nationalities that do and dont need such documentation to be here:

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=8777


I know there are ways and means of getting around things, but surely the name of the game here, is to make things that bit more difficult for the fakers, the pimps and the traffickers?

In another post, you made reference to the amount of unconfirmed/fake allegations that the police must receive regarding pimping/trafficking etc. I would never propose making fake or spurious allegations or reports to the police and thus wasting their time. What I would suggest, is that any client who visits an escort and forms the strong opinion that this person does not want to be where he/she is and doing what they are doing, or are of a questionable age, they should make an excuse and leave if they have'nt yet gone ahead with the business, but in any event they should report their genuine concern anonymously to the police and suggest that it might be worth it for the police to look into the matter. I suggest that this be done anonymously for two reasons. The client providing the information might not feel comfortable appearing as a witness in a court case, and secondly if he went ahead and had sex with an escort, who it later transpires was trafficked here against his/her will and forced into prostitution, then he is incriminating himself.

Equally, those of us who notice what looks, smells and tastes like a high level of organisation can also bring these matters to the attention of the police..........though if they are monitoring this site, they should be as aware of these issues as some of the rest of us are. Again there should be no need to make any allegations as such.........a mere anonymously email from an interet cafe, complete with the relevant profile links and a suggestion that the police themselves may wish to monitor these profiles might suffice. The police after all should be the ones investigating all of this..........they get paid for it, we don't.

One final point if I may. I was always under the impression that it was the responsibilty of anybody who was aware that a crime had been committed, was being committed or was about to be committed, to report this matter to the police, even if this only extended to a strong suspicion rather than first hand knowledge. It comes under civic responsibility. Now if members of the E-I community (escorts, clients and posters/observers) have an onus placed upon them to act in a civicly responsible manner, and E-I has actively encouraged this in numerous posts, then surely this onus extends to E-I employees also.

Sorry for the long post folks

[the dude]

Pimping(with coercion) and trafficking are extremely serious crimes, and no one can make a moral arguement for them

Telling these apart from say agencies is difficult

1) Given how serious the crimes are, I think this site needs to eliminate the grey area of agency advertising. That would at least put some clear blue water between the categories. And then any hint of 'batch updates' etc could be stomped out by Ad Staff.

2) Also this is a website, and webcams are pervasive, so webcam contact should be required with each new advertiser, this would also help on the 'verified photos' problem.

3) Also, how do escorts pay for ads ? I'm tending to presume via credit card ? There again some safeguards can be put in place: one creidt card per escort(and one escort per credit card), and requiring first name to match escort gender.

4) Reviewers should be asked to fill in a private field on how suspicious they are re an escort's setup, eg. 1=all fine ; 3=couldn't tell ; 5= very dodgy - and scores at 4 or more should be notified to Gardaí

5) IT: detailed records of all pimps should be kept (IP ranges, user agent strings) and cookies, inlcuding the very hard to erase flash cookies, should be deposited with every user, again making tracking easy. This can then be used to detect subsequent suspicious registrations.

[SexyOlivia69]

I quite agree with Brother Dave that a background check on profiles is commendable; in fact, I think it is only the application of common sense for an experienced punter to check profile issues and reviews before making an appointment........but how many punters take the time and effort to do any research?..........how many punters inform themselves of issues that get discussed in the community section?.......and how many newbie punters get suckered in by fake profiles and/or reviews? I know when I started to punt, I would have been as green as the next person and taken all photo verified profiles and reviews at face value........but years of experience have thought me a number of things. Firstly, if an escort is using professional photos, there is a 100% probability that they have been touched up, and there is also a high probability that in many instances they are not belonging to the escort being advertised, but have been pinched from a foreign escorting, porn or glamour photo site. Secondly, if I see a very well written profile intro for an escort who states that she has basic English or whoes mother tongue is not English, or if having made a booking with someone speaking excellent English I then encounter an escort much worse English, I know that she is receiving help/assistance from someone else or that there is a degree of organisation involved in her working here

The terms "pimping" and "trafficking" get bandied around a lot here lately, and as Patricia has stated, it is up to those who have their suspicions as to whether an escort is involved in this business of her/his own free will, to make those suspicions known to one of the police forces on this island. Naturally, this will involve punters who come into contact with such escorts making contact with the Gardai or PSNI.......however, this should be done anonymously, as having sex with a trafficked escort is a criminal offence. My own advice to anybody considering making an appointment with an escort is to check out all relevant information and if they find themselves standing in front of an escort with little or no English, make whatever excuse and leave. If an escort has insufficient English to arrange accomodation, manage her advertisement profile or write the intro thereof, or arrange transportation around Ireland while touring, then it is probably that he/she is either being assisted, directed, controlled, or in an extreme case, has even been trafficked here and is involved in escorting against her will.

There is no point in anyone claiming ignorance..........just pick a group of escorts with similar profile data and monitor their movements for a while. You will see patterns emerging very fast. I myself looked at two groups. The first involved up to 15 escorts moving between Waterford/Kilkenny/Limerick, the second about 8 escorts moving between Dublin 8/Dundalk/Clare and if you go into the Escort search facility and put in Moldovan as nationality, you will find 7 or so escorts in Dublin with the same or similar prices and working hours.

Now while as Patricia clearly and rightly states, E-I is not about investigating possible cases of "pimping" and "trafficking" and that suspicion and fact are entirely different things, I would question whether E-I should not be more proactive in looking at the advertisements that are being uploaded here on a daily basis. When others (clients and independent escorts) have no difficulties using photo evidence, profile similarities, escort rotation patterns etc. to form an opinion about the level of organisation involved within certain circles or groups, then maybe E-I should take a look at some of these issues and set aside some time/resources to play their part in ensuring, or least making if more difficult, for controlled/pimped/agency escorts to be passed off as independents or for trafficked men and women to be advertised here. At the end of the day, this is in the interest of the genuine independents who pay to advertise here also and it is also in the interests of those clients who dont wish to one day be facing a criminal charge or a conviction for having had sex with a trafficked escort. Otherwise, we are left with a situation where, while E-I advise those with suspicions to contact the police and claim to support measures to stop trafficking, they will still seem to be happy to advertise and accept advertising revenue from escorts over whom questions marks exist. In practice, this would mean that any pimped/controlled/trafficked escort would continue to have her/himself advertised on E-I without question until the police step in to rescue them.

I appreciate what you are saying but don't you think you are being a bit hypocritical? What i mean is I took a look at your reviews and on 1 of them you clearly state that you went to an appointment and a "Lady" meet you at the door and presented you with 3 different women to choose from...........Well, is that not pimping? And didn't you go through with the appointment? And after you got done with your appointment did you go straight to the guarda and report them anonymously? I think not..........So why are you all of sudden on your high horse telling everyone else what they should or should not do? Now, don't get me wrong I agree if ANYONE (not just clients) has any suspensions that someone my have been trafficked, being pimped out, or in any danger than they need to go to the guarda ASAP but not anonymously. I do agree with Patricia on that point because the guarda will take the info more seriously if it is not anonymously done..........Just thought I would put my 2 cents in...........................

[carlos marvado]

I appreciate what you are saying but don't you think you are being a bit hypocritical? What i mean is I took a look at your reviews and on 1 of them you clearly state that you went to an appointment and a "Lady" meet you at the door and presented you with 3 different women to choose from...........Well, is that not pimping? And didn't you go through with the appointment? And after you got done with your appointment did you go straight to the guarda and report them anonymously? I think not..........So why are you all of sudden on your high horse telling everyone else what they should or should not do? Now, don't get me wrong I agree if ANYONE (not just clients) has any suspensions that someone my have been trafficked, being pimped out, or in any danger than they need to go to the guarda ASAP but not anonymously. I do agree with Patricia on that point because the guarda will take the info more seriously if it is not anonymously done..........Just thought I would put my 2 cents in...........................

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read my review of two years ago. Even if it was'nt one of my better written reviews, I'm happy that at least one person has made use of it.

As to the review itself, my main issue was that the escort in question was working for an agency rather then as an independent as advertised and that the services listed were not all on offer. I did'nt however state that I came away with the impression that she was working under duress. As can be seen, the appointment was at 2.00 am on a rather warm summer's night and the little head got the better of the big head on this occasion........something which I believe is quite common amongst those of us who are male. However, I still don't see any reason to feel the least bit hypocritical about now councelling clients to report instances where they get the strong impression that an escort is working under duress........note that I am councelling or encouraging rather then telling or directing anybody in what they should do, as it is not my place to tell other adults what they should or should not do........I like to leave that to the likes of Ruhama.

Of course if I were in a similar position today, I would act differently and not go ahead with such a meeting, but then having hung up my saddle in this jurisdiction some time ago, a similar occurance would not arise. With experience and in light of the information or even hysteria about trafficking, which has been doing the rounds for some time now, it is only right and proper that clients would reassess their punting activities and act differently than before.......there is therefore no hypocracy in changing ones views in light of ones life experiences.......I think it's called maturing. I know that I think differently about things today than I did when I was 20, and I suspect that you do to.

Thank you once again for reading my review and for your 2 cents.......though I would have been happier if you had made it 2 Euro.