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Thread: Mia Doring on the “Episode” podcast with Richie Sadlier

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    Default Mia Doring on the “Episode” podcast with Richie Sadlier

    I don’t imagine she’s popular here but I thought I’d post a link for anyone who might be interested

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/5wuBqJfifp2USZthszyFCe

    I haven’t yet listened to it.

    Mia Doring worked for four years as a sex worker in Ireland while she was in college.

    She has previously written a book “Any Girl” about the experience and also given a Ted talk.

    https://www.independent.ie/life/heal.../41360309.html


    Men of all ages connect on forums in an online community. They approach ‘punting’ as if it’s a hobby. Sometimes they refer to themselves as ‘hobbyists’. Sometimes they refer to the women they pay to have sex with as ‘service providers’. They discuss ‘Who is the best at anal right now?’ and ‘good oral in Kildare’. It’s an online support group for the sick at heart, everyone validating each other’s sickness.

    These websites normalise the behaviour that the punters cannot share with anyone else in their life. It’s OK when everyone else is doing it, after all. This online culture helped me to feel that what I was doing was OK too. When we do not have a solid sense of self, it is so much easier to attach ourselves to people and values we don’t necessarily know are good or bad for us.


    I look back on my younger self, my accepting, non-judgmental, open way of being, and feel I need to protect her, wrap her in cotton wool and cover it with barbed wire.
    At any time, between 800 and 1,000 women are advertised for sex on escort sites in Ireland. This does not include the ‘sugar dating’ phenomenon and social media.

    An estimated one in 15 Irish men pay for sexual access, meaning there may be more than 100,000 ‘punters’ in our country, compared to about 1,000 female ‘service providers’.
    Why are we not talking about these men? Why are they not talking? In the debates about prostitution, we do not hear from them. They don’t ‘come out’. They don’t create associations or campaign for ‘punters’ rights’. If punting is the legitimate and harmless hobby they claim it to be, why not?

    There is a lot of money to be made from operating brothels and running an escort website. Advertising is very expensive – one ‘online directory’ of women in prostitution had a turnover of €6m in 2015. The men pay around a €100 for 30 minutes of sex with a woman, around €200 for an hour. And with more than 100,000 punters, there is obviously no shortage of male demand for women’s bodies.

    We know that most women in the sex trade are not there voluntarily, and when we understand sexual consent to be freely given, voluntary and reversible, it is inarguable that when people defend the sex trade in Ireland, they are defending the daily rape of women and girls. The pimps who run the websites become multi-millionaires by serving up a literal rape market.
    You visit men in hotel rooms all over Dublin. You are cheerful and caring. A breath of fresh air, says one 50-year-old man.
    So obedient, says another, and your stomach shrinks.

    Most of them are middle-aged, middle-class, married and wealthy. They live in big houses, have big cars and fat wallets with pictures of their families.
    Seeing you is a hobby they feel entitled to indulge. They express no emotion. They like to try new girls. They say they want to ‘try’ you, and you feel grateful that you’ve been selected. You actually feel special that they picked you. And you feel special that you are able to sell sex – that you have the guts and confidence to do it.
    You deal with the men with your disarming openness and friendliness, never showing or experiencing any feeling. You accept them exactly as they are. You are in charge and you are empowered. This is what we’ve been told to do, isn’t it? If sex sells, why shouldn’t I profit?


    In the media, the men who pay their way inside women are described by many sex-trade advocates as lonely, elderly, disabled or socially isolated. They are described as men wanting to ‘connect’, in need of touching a woman’s body, wanting a hug, a chat.
    In the four years I spent ‘servicing’ random men, I never met any man who just wanted to talk, or needed a hug. Not once. The vast majority were in their 40s and 50s, middle-class, self-assured, and entitled.
    You take the bus out to a northside suburb to see a punter, and get lost trying to find your way around the wide, silent streets lined with enormous houses. You arrive and he lets you in, and you remember now, as you write this, that your hair is so blonde. He doesn’t say much.

    The halls are lined with those studio photos of families where everyone is grinning and wearing black, with their hands on each other’s shoulders. The impeccable kitchen is huge.
    He – dark-haired, middle-aged and soft-jawed – leans on the counter drinking coffee, and you stand a little way off, unsure what to do with your bag so you hold it in front of you. He sips and looks you up and down. His lack of engagement makes you babble. He could smile. He could say something to put you at ease. He could make a joke. Some of them make jokes. This one doesn’t give a shit how he is perceived.

    He says, “What do you do?”
    And you tell him that you’re in art college and you want to do sculpture.
    You waffle on about it and he interrupts you. “No, what do you do?”
    The air pings and focuses and you stand there with your bag in front of you. You suck it all back in, and give him the list of what you do, but it’s too late. Your presumption that he was asking you about your life was idiotic, and now you are exposed.

    Objectification is the loss of bodily autonomy, and it can happen in a moment. It can happen with a look, a comment, or with an order. You are the most objectified you have ever felt. You let you mind shrink and fold so that it is tiny, tiny, tiny, and you leave your body and think about college, the rest of your day, how you will get home.

    You’re just a character. You’re acting a part. You’re not really you right now. It’s OK. One of your many personas is not in the room, has not made it up the stairs, but is on her way home. Another has melted out of its body-shell and sits on the windowsill, looking on and laughing at the stupidity of 21-year-old girl thinking she possesses any power, sexual or otherwise, in any part of her life.
    It’s over, and he doesn’t say thank you or goodbye. He grimaces an attempt at a smile as you go out the door. You get the bus home. It didn’t seem as if you made him that happy. You didn’t do a good job. You are responsible for the client’s enjoyment of the time he spends with you. If a man isn’t happy, it’s your fault.

    You feel the stark reality of having had sex with a man you didn’t want to have sex with. You have betrayed yourself. You need the punters to make you feel valued, and you hate them when you end up feeling used, discarded and violated. Then you need them more. On the bus home, you hold your money, and you feel a little better.

    You go to college and make your art and see your friends, and everything is normal. The escorting exists in a separate bubble. You do it when you feel like it, whenever you need some extra money. You like scheduling your ‘clients’. It feels grown-up to have these secret plans. You like getting the cash. It feels powerful and important to be handed €150. It feels important to keep an eye on the time, to make sure you don’t run over the 30 minutes that €150 pays for.

    It feels grown-up to throw the cash into a drawer, where very often you forget about it. You tell yourself you ‘need the money’, but looking at it makes you feel uneasy, and you spend it quickly, sometimes on paying bills, more often on insignificant, superficial things like make-up, just to get rid of it. The money is both coercive and compensatory. It cleans it up, makes it OK, gives you a small thrill.

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    Seems a bit like the Hollywood MeToo phenomenon, she was fine with it when it suited her but now she no longer benefits from it she wants to remove that option and it's time to pull up that ladder.

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    Mm, I sure plenty of girls feel like that about what they did, or are currently feeling like that now. It takes a lot of strength to isolate yourself from assholes and then not project onto people who simply aren't.

    There are a lot of assholes out there if one is vulnerable to them or mentally vulnerable to begin with.

    I still find it hard to swallow her piece entirely - how much money does someone chase if they loathe it and are only using their income as disposable cash, and are not funding a drug dependency/alcohol addiction etc?

    I reckon it would be infrequent working by someone who doesn't have anything to struggle for and by someone who was mentally vulnerable. It's not a job for everyone. But these the type who find it easiest to look back and blame everyone else but themselves, and not allow for women who aren't mentally vulnerable and who have bigger things to worry about than imagining what a client may or may not be thinking about them in his every waking moment. For the most part, good or bad, clients are not even thinking about you, they're gone on with their own lives. You've got you.

    Even her client base, I don't buy it, I know that client base, big house, family photos, it's an exceptional one who you'd meet who hasn't spent the hours previous hoping you'll be a girl who will enjoy herself too. I've met one but he was also not a nice guy in real life (I used shop there, I'm sure the staff were miserable).

    People want to part with money for sex, yes, but they don't want to part with it if they think that you won't like them. Lying that you will suffices most of the time because they too can't know any different or know what you're thinking but it's certainly not what they're hoping for.

    I've yet to see an advert that says, "I don't like my job or having clients in me but please give me money and do with my body as you wish". Probably because it wouldn't do very well. If it did, they'd be the real abusers, not the ones she's projecting onto.

    But I would ask why, why if that's how feel about all clients, wouldn't you put it in your advert. Who are you trying to attract by not doing so? Non-abusers, people who don't want to abuse you, people who want you to have a good time too?

    You can't think that those people don't exist but do exist at the same time. Well, you can but that's your problem.
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    *you

    Actually, that advert would probably do great but a third for all the wrong reasons, a third for all the people who'd hope you're playing and they want to play too, and a third because I didn't write it well and it might be a princess domming ...or Rachel.
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    "I still find it hard to swallow her piece entirely - how much money does someone chase if they loathe it and are only using their income as disposable cash, and are not funding a drug dependency/alcohol addiction etc?"

    I'm struck by the number of overseas ladies (i can't comment on anyone else) who are doing for monetary reasons and often quite well defined ones who will spend huge sums on designer clothes / bags etc. That is not me being judgemental although it may sound like that but it seems a hard way to see maybe 7/8 people minimum to buy something that gets put in the back of the closet and make that initial goal a little bit further away. Money is a means to validate yourself and at the same time for some it is also a reminder of how they have gotten it.

    I was/am a heavy gambler. I grew up around horse racing people and a set that loved to plot and gamble. I know that nothing is so dangerous as having a big win. It's spectacularly easy to give the money back in minutes to the bookmaker or just as easy to buy something stupid with it. Money does funny things to people and their judgements no matter who they are especially money they feel was not earned "properly". I spent 35 years from my first bet to a few years ago learning that. For the record any money you've earned honestly through your efforts physically or mentally is "proper" money in my book.

    In terms of vulnerability I saw someone about two months ago that left me deeply disturbed. I'm talking someone deeply unhappy, isolated and lonely. I'm pretty certain she had given birth within the last 6 months. Maybe she had just had a bad client or was missing home. What does one do then? One definitely decides there is no point in continuing what you had intended. One asks "are you ok" but are really hoping that the answer is anything but "no I'm terrible". One asks "am I the only person who has seen this" amidst the glowing reviews. One goes "why the f@@k am I feeding the machine?". One knows why they are feeding the machine but maybe that is not good enough. "Hard cases make bad laws" I tell myself. Yeah right.

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    Aye, I hear you but I'm not talking about everyone, I'm taking about her in particular and girls like her. She was privileged af in terms of what she was doing. She had one traumatising event prior to her getting into the business. She didn't work often, she didn't have to work often, she was in a healthy position to clock watch as she said so herself. She was playing, she hasn't a notion, and now she's dramatising her particular situation because she can do. Some people said some off putting things to her sometimes.



    She was a pretty young white Irish girl from Monkstown from a two parent family who could write and communicate well I'm English, and did well enough and had resources enough to go to UCD, she dabbled in escorting for a few years, had no disabilities (bar her previous trauma), no kids, no mortgage, no addictions, had brains enough and stability enough to continue her studies.

    She hasn't a notion, and is dramatising her past and capitalising at the expense of others.

    I don't like women like her. There are plenty of women in the industry who are not as privileged as she was who are happy af to be in the industry because they actually know what it's like to struggle, and what they would like is to be able to do it in a safe environment and without interference from people like her.
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    * comma, comma, in

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    I'm rather confused by the she was raped and traumatized so she got into the sex trade bit, if it was traumatic would you not be adverse to similar scenarios as "triggering"?

    Also - UCD dropout -> Art college -> Institute of Art and Design -> Journalism... doesn't seem like she was stuck for cash given that's not exactly a career path but instead the path of a dreamer with notions of being the next Picasso or such. Definitely sounds like a privileged background and probably did escorting for kicks, or drama, as opposed to got into escorting out of need for cash, so I question her claim "You do it when you feel like it, whenever you need some extra money.".

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    No extortionate accomodation costs to pay, no dodgy landlords to deal with etc, no having to do things she wasn't comfortable with that she didn't create for herself accidentally or on purpose.

    Not just relatively privileged in relation to people entering the industry, my point is that she was privileged in the type of clients that she could attract. She wasn't getting the dregs, she was meeting what you and I would class as normal people or she at least could have been meeting them. I don't buy that she was abused beyond her own making.

    The only part of it I do buy is that she was previously raped and traumatised and somehow ended up in the industry like how people end up in the party life continuing a cycle of abuse and self abuse, but I reckon it was with herself and demons who didn't exist.

    Lots of people who were abused do end up in sex work, I don't doubt that. For lots of reasons, some because they know they can do it, they're at a loss, they were stunted earlier on and are playing catch up now, led into it by a dodgy partner, etc, etc, many reasons.

    I have sympathy for it up to a point, she was raped by someone at some stage who wasn't a punter, she was traumatised, she was young, but don't going interfering with other sex workers abilities to manage, control or keep safe their sexual situations.

    She's lost me at that and at her farcical tale of abuse in the industry.

    Anyhow, I shouldn't even read these, I promised myself to ignore all things political...give me peace 🙏🏼 I just saw her face, read her nonsense and sparked.
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    One general comment I would make of specific application in this thread would ge the fact there seems to be little sympathy for someone who comes from a life of relative privilege and who has more opportunities. This to me equates to saying that if you have a bigger bank balance you should just suck it up. If you have to take some random examples a terminally ill close relative, a child with life long health issues , significant mental health issues in your family tree then the fact that you can pay your bills means that your pain is somehow less? All your money does is get better care. A not insignificant thing I fully admit but the hurt is not any different. If your father is molesting you it doesn’t really matter too much where it is happening to sone extent.

    She is in the business of promoting herself and her book. Like all narratives when there is no one to contradict what she says everything must be viewed through that prism. She’s not a hill I would plant my flag and defend to the death but dismissing her out of hand because of her address and background is too pat.

    I say that as someone who likes your generally even tone Sarah.

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