Israel

[Rooney2808]

I agree that a 2 state solution is probably the best for peace. But if the 2 states are Israel as it is now and Palestine as it is now which is Gaza and The West Bank then I don't think Hamas will agree to this.
They will want to reclaim some of the land that the Palestinian people have ben forced off down the years. Israel won't give in to this so it's hard to see a peaceful future.

My knowledge on this is quite limited so I'm saying this from a place of ignorance really.

[Palatine]

I agree that a 2 state solution is probably the best for peace. But if the 2 states are Israel as it is now and Palestine as it is now which is Gaza and The West Bank then I don't think Hamas will agree to this.
They will want to reclaim some of the land that the Palestinian people have ben forced off down the years. Israel won't give in to this so it's hard to see a peaceful future.

My knowledge on this is quite limited so I'm saying this from a place of ignorance really.

Well Hamas certainly won't as they are committed to Israel's destruction and the creation of an Islamic state in historic Palestine as the only viable solution. They split from the PLO on this very point.

[Stephanie]

I responded to a very specific post that suggested Muslims in Jerusalem had lost their holy places after the 1967 annexation. Most people commenting on this tragedy are mindlessly aligning their views with their tribe. On the left - pro-Palestine. On the right - pro-Israel. Most of that is simplistic nonsense that adds nothing but sideline cheerleading for your favourite team. The only thing I added to this conversation was to add my personal experience of Jerusalem. That's it - I've never been to Gaza and my time in the West Bank was far too short to make any personal observation. But Jerusalem, I know, and what was characterised here was miles off the reality of being in that city.

One of the other simplistic views of the region is that there are two groups there - Muslim Palestinians and Jewish Israelis. The reality is that there are also Christian Palestinians, Israeli Arabs, Druze, Ultra-orthodox anti-Zionist Jews, Ultra-orthodox Zionist Jews (and most Israelis don't like the last two groups at all), Israeli peaceniks, Palestinians who recognise Israel's right to exist, Palestinians who are determined to drive every non-Muslim into the Mediterranean, Jewish settlers in the West Bank who want to drive Palestinians across the Jordan, and more.

My views on the Balfour Project are about as relevant as my views on the Plantation of Ulster.
If we want peace then what we have to deal with what is here and now, and I certainly don't agree with expelling Jews from the holy land. If you're starting point is that Israel should be destroyed because of a historic injustice done to the Arab population then the only path to that is an all-out war and genocidal clearance of the land. If your starting point is that Palestine needs to be razed to the ground, then you're also a genocidal warmonger. Unfortunately, there are far too many of these people - even if they are few in number there is enough of them to trigger what we've seen in the last few weeks.

What most of us should want, if we truly want peace, are two viable states living side by side not in fear of their security, with people going about their business going to work, fucking, marrying, having babies and dying of old age.

The problem the Israelis have always had is that they've rarely been able to negotiate across the table with an opponent that at least recognises that Israel exists and is going nowhere. They see and read what is written about them in Arabic media. They know that too many openly say that the Jews are subhuman and rats, and should be exterminated or expelled. There's no graffitti on the wall calling for a two-state solution. They've heard that message in the 1930's, and they didn't believe it. They believe it now, and they refuse to let it happen again. So what do they do - when they withdrew from Sinai, they get peace with Egypt. Great. But when they withdraw from Gaza, they get rockets. When they build walls in the West Bank, they get peace. Now tell me which country's leader would choose the "good" option that gets it people killed over the "bad" option that keeps its people safe. I'm not saying it's right, but I damn well know I'd be demanding if I were under the rockets. The Israelis have learned that they get peace when they're tough, and they killed when their weak. That's not an excuse and it certainly doesn't justify what asshole settlers are doing in the West Bank, or the over-reaction that is happening right now in Gaza (which plays right into the Iranian plan to scupper the Israeli-Saudi agreements). What is happening now from Israel is not just a strategic mistake but most importantly against international law and should be classified as a war crime. This doesn't mean that I don't think Israel has a right to exist. Maybe that's a hard thing for the armchair cheerleaders to comprehend.

Thank you for a very thorough reply ; you make many valid points .


The Two States Solution ! Oh , if only !

Israel has made that impossible by ‘Swiss-cheesing’ the entire West Bank with the many hundreds of

illegal settlements , where the indigenous Palestinians exist in only isolated ‘island’ communities ,

bisected and criss-crossed by Israeli infrastructure and Israeli communities and settlements

that are now towns / nearly cities onto themselves in luxury on Palestinian land , while the the Palestinians

have not even the most basic human rights , civil rights , right to Live .

The Two State Solution : would be ideal , will never happen .

For the above reasons , and for the fact that the Palestinians to this day ( and dare I say never will ) Accept

the Illegal Occupation of their land . The English Mandate etc. all Without Consulting the Indigenous people .


: someone comes into your house and arbitrarily divides Your house between you and another ,

giving more than half of your house to the other without asking you , and pushing you out of half of your house

to accommodate the other / who is actually much less in number than you . Without even Asking you !

And the other declaring That half of Your house now Their sovereign territory .

Would you find that acceptable and just bow your head , curtsy and accept ???

And then over the coming years the other disregarding the arbitrarily drawn line that You didn’t even

consent to in the first place , but the other keeps overstepping it further and further into the remainder

of Your house , and pushing You further and further out Your house .

Would You abide by it ??


Where is the answer ? I do not know . But the indiscriminate large scale extermination of a people is really

not palatable to Me .




// my above description very PG . Imagine atrocities and forceful evictions ; bombs , rapes , killings , and more .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


“ If we want peace then what we have to deal with what is here and now, and I certainly don't agree with

expelling Jews from the holy land.”

^^^ do you agree with the continuous decades-long expelling and eviction of the Palestinian people off

from Their land so ?

[Stephanie]

I agree that a 2 state solution is probably the best for peace. But if the 2 states are Israel as it is now and Palestine as it is now which is Gaza and The West Bank then I don't think Hamas will agree to this.
They will want to reclaim some of the land that the Palestinian people have ben forced off down the years. Israel won't give in to this so it's hard to see a peaceful future.

My knowledge on this is quite limited so I'm saying this from a place of ignorance really.

Even IF the Palestinians agreed to a Two State Solution : it is no longer possible .

The West Bank ( land that was supposed to be the Palestinian ‘half’ ) has been occupied by Israel by way of

the illegal settlements — that are encouraged and subsidized by Israeli govt. — to such extent ,

that it resembles Swiss cheese : holes . The holes are the Palestinian neighborhoods .

Israeli held land is the cheese , Palestinian is the holes . In West Bank . Isolated communities .

The boat has sailed .

In very large part as Netanyahu’s grand design . :: looking at timeline of settlements in West Bank ,

the most number of new settlements were established during His ‘reign’ in power :: during his previous tenure ,

and now during his last stint .

Two States no longer possible .

I think some 700,000 Jewish settlers live now in West Bank . It’s towns , large towns , small cities .

Tennis courts and swimming pools , you wouldn’t know that you weren’t somewhere in the States !

All modern conveniences and wealth , comfort and good life — wonderful :: but not at the price

of killing off a people !




The videos I put up a couple of pages back ( but had minors in them ) well worth watching .

I have a few more .

[Palatine]

“ If we want peace then what we have to deal with what is here and now, and I certainly don't agree with

expelling Jews from the holy land.”

^^^ do you agree with the continuous decades-long expelling and eviction of the Palestinian people off

from Their land so ?

Of course not. I mean, how do you jump from "I don't agree with expelling the Jews" to "so you must have some sympathy with expelling the Arabs". It's not a choice between one or the other. A return to 1967 borders with Israel guaranteed its security from the threat of a 4th Arab assault on its existence is the only way forward. Israel can't have a cycle of being attacked by Arab neighbours who when they lose, get to reset back to the pre-attack positions. Israel's experience is that giving up land doesn't deliver peace. So what's the point in giving up land?

If a 2 state solution is impossible, then you've come to the same conclusion as the Israeli far right who think it's a choice between Israel being destroyed or Israel destroying Palestine. I sincerely hope you're both wrong.

[Stephanie]

Of course not. I mean,
how do you jump from "I don't agree with expelling the Jews" to "so you must have some sympathy with expelling the Arabs". It's not a choice between one or the other. A return to 1967 borders with Israel guaranteed its security from the threat of a 4th Arab assault on its existence is the only way forward. Israel can't have a cycle of being attacked by Arab neighbours who when they lose, get to reset back to the pre-attack positions.
Israel's experience is that giving up land doesn't deliver peace. So what's the point in giving up land?

If that is impossible, then you've come to the same conclusion as the Israeli far right who think it's a choice between Israel being destroyed or Israel destroying Palestine. I sincerely hope you're both wrong.

It was a question . Please read again xx

I asked if you agree with expelling and evicting Palestinian people off of Their land .

Israel to this day is continuously encroaching and taking land from the Palestinian people .

Continuing to take Palestinian land and squeezing the Palestinian people into an unbearable existence

brings violence upon Israel . :: the leadership of both sides know it : it’s a back-and-forth .


To achieve - or even Hope to achieve - a Two State Solution , All the illegal settlers would have to be removed

from the West Bank . Do you think that’s feasible ?

How do you feel about that prospect ?

[Palatine]

It was a question . Please read again xx

I asked if you agree with expelling and evicting Palestinian people off of Their land .

Israel to this day is continuously encroaching and taking land from the Palestinian people .

Continuing to take Palestinian land and squeezing the Palestinian people into an unbearable existence

brings violence upon Israel . :: the leadership of both sides know it : it’s a back-and-forth .


To achieve - or even Hope to achieve - a Two State Solution , All the illegal settlers would have to be removed

from the West Bank . Do you think that’s feasible ?

How do you feel about that prospect ?

Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza. So it has happened.

Unfortunately what Israel has learned is that giving land back does not give safety. In fact it makes it worse. Taking land and building walls delivers security. That is the lesson of the last 30 years and Hamas would virulently agree that withdrawal from the West Bank will not end their war on Israel. So, yeah, right now what Israel is doing with settlements is morally wrong but until there's some prospect of Israel having security in exchange for withdrawal, no withdrawal will happen. I'm describing the real choices Israel has. Not endorsing the choice it makes.

[Stephanie]

Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza. So it has happened.

Unfortunately what Israel has learned is that giving land back does not give safety. In fact it makes it worse. Taking land and building walls delivers security. That is the lesson of the last 30 years and Hamas would virulently agree that withdrawal from the West Bank will not end their war on Israel. So, yeah, right now what Israel is doing with settlements is morally wrong but until there's some prospect of Israel having security in exchange for withdrawal, no withdrawal will happen. I'm describing the real choices Israel has. Not endorsing the choice it makes.

Hamas is Hamas - their methods inexcusable .

They exist because there’s Palestinian suffering .

They Could be exterminated , but it serves to have an enemy at the door .

That aside :

So , reading your words above : how would You propose a Two State Solution ??

On what land might the Palestinians live at last ? Having been pushed off their own ??

[Stephanie]

Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza. So it has happened.

Unfortunately what Israel has learned is that giving land back does not give safety. In fact it makes it worse. Taking land and building walls delivers security. That is the lesson of the last 30 years and Hamas would virulently agree that withdrawal from the West Bank will not end their war on Israel. So, yeah, right now what Israel is doing with settlements is morally wrong but until there's some prospect of Israel having security in exchange for withdrawal, no withdrawal will happen. I'm describing the real choices Israel has. Not endorsing the choice it makes.

And how popular was That move with the Israeli people ?

Now some 700,000 ( ? ) illegal settlers are in West Bank

Tell me how that should play out ?

The further continued infiltration and occupation : playing the Long Game .

[Stephanie]

Btw my bestie is Jewish .

When we roommated during Uni had the menorah 🕎 in-house - great memories ! - and the thingie on the door

I was part of her family and got to celebrate innumerable Hannukah and Rosh HaShanah with them .

Love them dearly .

We are still best friends after all the years x