Have you ever been approached by Gardai after visiting an apartment?

[The Libertarian]

The first prosecution under was indeed against a completely harmless man in his 60s and we know there was no trafficking issue (is there ever in reality, at least in the classic sense of Eastern European Pimps chaining sex workers to radiators in between client meets) because the ladies in the establishment he had been in , which would have been legally a brothel were allowed to carry on without hinderance on the day!

If I recall correctly the Guards have said there have been 80-90 convictions under this complete and utter insanity!

It struck me that this is the only law in recent times apart from previous ones which equated a woman's life to the legal equivalent of a foetus, where it was actually well known in advance that it would lead to very real harm being done to people in this case sex workers!

And of course that it what has happened!

Expect any changes on foot of the review to make the insanity even more oppressive!

[DRBlot]

Many thanks to the Libertarian for his input, however, I’m still far from convinced by the statistics.

It was reported by the Irish Examiner in December 2021 that 67 ‘proceedings’ had been taken for the purchase of sexual services. Minister McEntee (in reply to a question from Holly Cairns TD) stated that she was unable to confirm how many convictions there had been as the Court Services don’t keep that information.

I find it difficult to believe that if there were convictions, that none of them appear to have been reported in either the local or national newspapers. There have been a good few convictions for brothel keeping and trafficking reported in the newspapers, but I can’t find any for actual purchase of sexual services.

If anyone knows of any cases that were reported, could they please post them here? It would be a great help to punters to have facts like this.

I suspect in reality, the Guards aren’t too interested in punters so long as there’s no violence involved. I’m sure also that the effort the Guards need to put in to secure a conviction far outweighs any benefits to society, the escorts or the Guards themselves.

[Palatine]

I wouldn't doubt that you were told this.

But how can they legally prove anything just on the basis of that!

They can't.

Well certainly not on the basis of leaving an apartment!

It's nonsense. Leaving an apartment wouldn't be sufficient evidence to get past a DPP never mind a conviction. It would be like convicting someone for drug possession because they left the premises of a known dealer.

It's enough for a warrant to search your phone records and banking transactions. It *might* trigger a conversation with the provider to see if she is willing to make a statement incriminating you. Which *might* produce enough evidence to get past the DPP that you paid for or offered to pay for sexual services.

Like, I'm mr paranoid here. I would be the one ensuring there are no phone or banking records. But leaving a known premises - nah.

[TonyB]

It's nonsense. Leaving an apartment wouldn't be sufficient evidence to get past a DPP never mind a conviction. It would be like convicting someone for drug possession because they left the premises of a known dealer.

It's enough for a warrant to search your phone records and banking transactions. It *might* trigger a conversation with the provider to see if she is willing to make a statement incriminating you. Which *might* produce enough evidence to get past the DPP that you paid for or offered to pay for sexual services.

Like, I'm mr paranoid here. I would be the one ensuring there are no phone or banking records. But leaving a known premises - nah.

I was told by a barrister that it is.

[ladiesman217]

I was told by a barrister that it is.

That's why I stole a Domino's Pizza delivery bag and uniform.

Garda: "But why were you in the premises, when you could have just dropped off the pizza?"

Me: "Because first and foremost, I strive to be a gentleman. And second, I try and give exceptional customer service at all times. I get quite a few tips every day in fact!"

Garda: "Okay, we'll enter the premises now and see these pizza boxes".

Me: "Hmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you require the tenant's consent for that? And if you don't have it, wouldn't you need a warrant? I'm pretty sure that would take a while, by which time the tenant will have thrown the box in the trash?"

Garda: "....."

[Palatine]

I was told by a barrister that it is.

Either you misinterpretted or that's one barrister I'd avoid. Or you're doing your usual spoofing. This is basic stuff. The burden is on the DPP to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you committed a crime There is no crime in entering or leaving an escort's apartment. It's a crime to offer to pay or trade for sexual service or to actually pay or trade for sexual services. To be convicted of that crime there needs to be evidence beyond reasonable doubt that you such a transaction was offered or occurred. Very basic.

[TonyB]

I wouldn't doubt that you were told this.

But how can they legally prove anything just on the basis of that!

They can't.

Well certainly not on the basis of leaving an apartment!

I paid for legal advice, €300.
This said if you know anything about the legal profession, it's opinion and they never stand by anything.
This said he must know more about it than me.

I was told the Gardai will have their homework done.
You're leaving an advertising escorts apartment.
Why were you there other than the obvious?

I suppose if you have a plausible excuse, pizza delivery and you have a local pizza place, she called me and I'm a doctor and you do house calls, plausible excuses.

I was 6 inches deep and in an escorts room. I couldn't think of a plausible excuse

[TonyB]

I find this thread a bit confusing. As far as I can see, from a fairly extensive search of the web, the only successful conviction of a man for paying for sexual services was in early 2019. The man in question was in his mid-sixties and it appears that he significantly contributed to his own problems by admitting to having purchased sexual services when questioned by the Guards.

There have been numerous media reports of the Guards questioning suspects or engaging in ‘days of action’, but I can’t find any evidence of actual convictions.

If anyone has any compelling evidence (and I emphasise ‘compelling evidence’) of any other convictions of men in the Republic of Ireland relating to the purchase of sexual services under the 2017 legislation, I would be very grateful if they could post the evidence on this thread.

The chances of a client being caught are minimal.
In my opinion no cause for alarm.

Even if caught, hopefully it's friendly Gardai who are primarily interested in the escorts welfare.
They don't seem all that interested in clients.
Pimps yes. So they'll want to rule you out.

If you are unlucky and you get the Gardai who are there to throw out the escort and close the apartment, then you're fucked.

I don't know where statistics on criminal prosecutions are, but I'd be curious
But just because they're not readily on the internet, I don't believe there are none

[Airbusdriver]

The chances of a client being caught are minimal.
In my opinion no cause for alarm.

Even if caught, hopefully it's friendly Gardai who are primarily interested in the escorts welfare.
They don't seem all that interested in clients.
Pimps yes. So they'll want to rule you out.

If you are unlucky and you get the Gardai who are there to throw out the escort and close the apartment, then you're fucked.

I don't know where statistics on criminal prosecutions are, but I'd be curious
But just because they're not readily on the internet, I don't believe there are none

The first thing a Guard tells you is that you have the right to remain silent. So remain silent. The burden is on him to prove you broke the law. If you are confident start filming the guard, ask for his name, number and where he is based. Ask for the nane of their Superintendent. Tell him you have a right to film for your own safety and for any official complaint you might make.

Your visit to an Apartment is none of his business whatsoever, you could be a 'journalist', you could be anything you want, you're fine so long as the girl(s) dont say you paid for sex, which I'm sure they wouldn't do. You could wonder aloud is he also a client, is that why he is interested? Make it awkward for them!!
If you watch YouTube Auditors the cops always back down when challenged. The cops HATE being filmed. But you need to be strong and confident without being agressive or abusive.

[Palatine]

Your barrister would want to make sure you understand the difference between investigated, charged, and convicted.

"Why else would you be there". It's not up to you to prove your innocence. It's up to them to prove your guilt. No DPP is going to proceed on the basis of a file that says "he was there and sure why else would he be there".

Trust me on this one.