Dealing with the Law

[OilCanHarry]

First-time / only-time poster here. I'm not sure if this will get past mods, but let's see. It's a genuine attempt to give advice to people here. I'm not going to go into specifics on my friend's situation for reasons that should be soon clear. Let's just say that he was in a room with a lady when Gardaí entered the premises. The whole episode was stressful at the time and for many months afterwards dealing with Gardaí, solicitors etc. Even after everything was sorted out, it didn't really end and is something that lingers with him today.

Let's call the first bit of advice "Rule 1", because after this, some of you should just stop reading. And Rule 1 is: "really think what it would be like if you were accused of breaking the law". This isn't a traffic offence or giving someone a slap after a few pints. It's one of those laws where the accusation is worse than the punishment. A €500 fine for a first offence? €1,000 for a second offence. Let's be honest - most of you wouldn't care too much about that. But the accusation? Finding that your name is in a file being sent to the DPP; that you have a court date; that evidence against you may be read out in court; that local journalists can report on it even if you're not found guilty - that's the kicker here for most men. For most, it's marriage-ending, it's potentially career ending and will forever afterwards leave a mark on your life. Your kids won't be asking friends to stay over any more because your kids' friends' parents will think you're some kind of sex offender. Even if the charges were dismissed - there's no smoke without fire, right!? For any of you in the punter end of the business, I'd seriously consider what happens if it just gets to that courtroom. While my friend was waiting to find out in his own case, he seriously considered suicide as the only unselfish option. His career and reputation were going to be fucked so he might as well have a wee accident so that family could collect some life insurance money and he wouldn't be such a shitbag in their eyes. It seemed much more selfish to just carry on and have them deal with a father who couldn't provide for them anymore and was also a slimeball who was forever an embarrassment to them. As I said, some of you should just stop reading from this point onwards, because everything else is about mitigation - reducing the risk. But the only way to eliminate it is to not make the call in the first place.

Next - mobile phones. No, the Gardaí cannot just demand that you unlock your phone. However, if the Gardaí enter a premises with a warrant and you're there, they CAN seize your phone as containing potential evidence. For most people that's a problem if you have your personal phone with you - because you won't be seeing that phone again for months. If you're lucky, you might be offered the opportunity to keep your phone if you unlock it for them to check for evidence of potential criminality. What's on that phone determines what happens next, but if there's anything incriminating on it, you're likely to be arrested and taken for questioning. So, don't be bringing your personal phone anywhere you don't want it to be seized! Leave it at home or in the car. If you're going with the burner option then I'd offer a few other pieces of advice. First - make sure it's genuinely an anonymised burner. Purchase the sim with cash. Top up with cash. Let plenty of time (I would recommend 6 months) pass before you start using a new burner. Secondly - while using a burner - assume everything you text is readable by the whole world. If you discuss sexual services by text, you're pretty fucked. If a provider does so, cancel the appointment. Even if you delete text messages from your phone, then they're still stored by the mobile company, and they're still on her phone too. When the Gardaí come knocking on that door, you can't trust that all of this has been deleted. Whatsapp is mildly better than text message, but you're still relying on her deleting any messages to or from you. You want to be Mr Fucking Nice Guy and say that you trust the ladies when they say the Gardaí aren't interested in them, and that they have everything secure - that's fine. But it's naive and puts you at more risk. Don't trust that ladies are being responsible with your security. End of story. The fact that we're still in an age where most business is organised by regular phone and text tells me that security isn't even close to top priority for anyone. That's not a dig at providers of escorting services, it's a recommendation to look after your own shit. Don't be lying awake at night wondering what the Gardaí seized and whether they're reading your texts / whatsapp messages right now. It would be fantastic if the industry moved on to using more security communications apps that don't leave a permanent, decrypted trail - but that's a rat hole I won't go down. I just find it astounding that so little has changed since 2017 in how providers and punters interact. There's been zero improvement in security, and it all relies on the pretense that "the Gardaí don't care about me, they care about that other guy in that other situation".

Next - the meeting with the Gardaí. For one thing - be respectful. Don't be a know-it-all prick. How they act towards you will depend a lot on the immediate evidence and your behaviour. Don't do anything that makes you arrestable. Don't struggle or run - you'll find an assault / resisting arrest charge added and that's more leverage against you. Don't give a false name or address. They deal with that crap all day and they will be checking out who you are. They'll give you opportunities to lie and get yourself in a knot - again, to use as leverage against you. That being said, don't answer any questions. Other than your name and address, all questions should be answered politely saying that you'd like to have a solicitor present first. Your instinct will be to say anything that gets you out of the situation as soon as possible. You adrenaline will maxed out and that will cause to speak without thinking, say easily provable lies, and it does absolutely nothing to get you out of trouble. The Gardaí may even try to give you a false sense of security that you don't have anything to worry about - that it's not you they are targeting etc. Don't believe it. Anything said is likely to end up in the Gardaí notebook and then in part of the file sent to the DPP. They are not your friends. If you are questioned, you may be asked to sign the Garda's notes. Read the fucking notes - make sure you don't put your signature to anything that says anything more than "he confirmed his name and address and that he would like access to a solicitor". At this point you could be arrested - maybe because of evidence on your phone or on the provider's phone. There may also be insufficient evidence to arrest you there and then, but that does not mean that charges cannot be brought against you later, or that you won't be asked to make an appointment at a Garda station later for questioning or a statement. In any case, the first thing you need is a good solicitor who specialises in criminal law. Don't try to google your way through the law on this one - your ignorance of it will be used against you.

The following days and months are going to be difficult if you're a normal human being who doesn't usually have run-ins with the law. There will be times you'll feel absolutely fine and disbelief that anything more will come of it. There will be other times where you'll be frozen with fear, questioning every step you took, everything you said, didn't say and overthinking every aspect of the day from the moment you called to the moment you left the Gardaí's presence. If you have anyone you can talk to about it - lucky you - do it. In most cases this is something we can only deal with ourselves, so do things to deal with the stress - exercise, meditation - whatever works. Try not to hit the alcohol as this can make the feelings worse, especially if you're having suicidal thoughts. Having meetings with your solicitor and having them handle communications with the Gardaí will help. At this point I have no further advice to give, because you should have your solicitor on board with the facts of your case, and dealing with them appropriately. But your solicitor will probably advise you that even if it goes no further, the incident will be recorded in Pulse (the Garda information system), aaaand is basically accessible to any Garda in the future. So have a think about your neighbours and family who might have access to Pulse.

Some final thoughts.

The law is designed to create tension between punters' anonymity and providers' security. So punters might think they're fine if they go to a place where one provider works alone. But how do you know that If you ask, it makes you suspicious to the provider. The whole system is set up so that the more punters want to keep themselves safe, the more risks with safety the providers have to take. And vice versa. To enter a premises, a Garda will need to have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is in progress or have a warrant that is backed up by evidence that criminality has been ongoing in that premises. When they bust down the door with a warrant it's because the premises is likely to have been under surveillance for some time, with patterns evolving - such as men stopping at certain landmarks, looking at their phones / talking on their phones, and then entering a premises like an apartment block. My advice would be to avoid these settings. I know that is not what many providers here would want to hear. I'm sorry, but that's how the law makes interests collide. If somewhere is a well-known location in your city, avoid it.

For all who will think "I've done this a million times, and never had a problem you paranoid idiot" - I salute your confidence. This post isn't for you.

[Rockerman]

...and after all this you joined this site? Get the fuck !

So unlikely the guards will actually just enter the premises while you are there. If they do as long as they didn't see money changing hands they can do fuck all. They can't kick down doors either you know.

I may have missed some points as that was too fucking long...

[Rockerman]

I think my first post was Ronaldo scoring for United...

[Benny123]

After the first paragraph oi had enough and skipped the rest of it

[WeeJimmy]

First-time / only-time poster here. I'm not sure if this will get past mods, but let's see. It's a genuine attempt to give advice to people here. I'm not going to go into specifics on my friend's situation for reasons that should be soon clear. Let's just say that he was in a room with a lady when Gardaí entered the premises. The whole episode was stressful at the time and for many months afterwards dealing with Gardaí, solicitors etc. Even after everything was sorted out, it didn't really end and is something that lingers with him today.

Let's call the first bit of advice "Rule 1", because after this, some of you should just stop reading. And Rule 1 is: "really think what it would be like if you were accused of breaking the law". This isn't a traffic offence or giving someone a slap after a few pints. It's one of those laws where the accusation is worse than the punishment. A €500 fine for a first offence? €1,000 for a second offence. Let's be honest - most of you wouldn't care too much about that. But the accusation? Finding that your name is in a file being sent to the DPP; that you have a court date; that evidence against you may be read out in court; that local journalists can report on it even if you're not found guilty - that's the kicker here for most men. For most, it's marriage-ending, it's potentially career ending and will forever afterwards leave a mark on your life. Your kids won't be asking friends to stay over any more because your kids' friends' parents will think you're some kind of sex offender. Even if the charges were dismissed - there's no smoke without fire, right!? For any of you in the punter end of the business, I'd seriously consider what happens if it just gets to that courtroom. While my friend was waiting to find out in his own case, he seriously considered suicide as the only unselfish option. His career and reputation were going to be fucked so he might as well have a wee accident so that family could collect some life insurance money and he wouldn't be such a shitbag in their eyes. It seemed much more selfish to just carry on and have them deal with a father who couldn't provide for them anymore and was also a slimeball who was forever an embarrassment to them. As I said, some of you should just stop reading from this point onwards, because everything else is about mitigation - reducing the risk. But the only way to eliminate it is to not make the call in the first place.

Next - mobile phones. No, the Gardaí cannot just demand that you unlock your phone. However, if the Gardaí enter a premises with a warrant and you're there, they CAN seize your phone as containing potential evidence. For most people that's a problem if you have your personal phone with you - because you won't be seeing that phone again for months. If you're lucky, you might be offered the opportunity to keep your phone if you unlock it for them to check for evidence of potential criminality. What's on that phone determines what happens next, but if there's anything incriminating on it, you're likely to be arrested and taken for questioning. So, don't be bringing your personal phone anywhere you don't want it to be seized! Leave it at home or in the car. If you're going with the burner option then I'd offer a few other pieces of advice. First - make sure it's genuinely an anonymised burner. Purchase the sim with cash. Top up with cash. Let plenty of time (I would recommend 6 months) pass before you start using a new burner. Secondly - while using a burner - assume everything you text is readable by the whole world. If you discuss sexual services by text, you're pretty fucked. If a provider does so, cancel the appointment. Even if you delete text messages from your phone, then they're still stored by the mobile company, and they're still on her phone too. When the Gardaí come knocking on that door, you can't trust that all of this has been deleted. Whatsapp is mildly better than text message, but you're still relying on her deleting any messages to or from you. You want to be Mr Fucking Nice Guy and say that you trust the ladies when they say the Gardaí aren't interested in them, and that they have everything secure - that's fine. But it's naive and puts you at more risk. Don't trust that ladies are being responsible with your security. End of story. The fact that we're still in an age where most business is organised by regular phone and text tells me that security isn't even close to top priority for anyone. That's not a dig at providers of escorting services, it's a recommendation to look after your own shit. Don't be lying awake at night wondering what the Gardaí seized and whether they're reading your texts / whatsapp messages right now. It would be fantastic if the industry moved on to using more security communications apps that don't leave a permanent, decrypted trail - but that's a rat hole I won't go down. I just find it astounding that so little has changed since 2017 in how providers and punters interact. There's been zero improvement in security, and it all relies on the pretense that "the Gardaí don't care about me, they care about that other guy in that other situation".

Next - the meeting with the Gardaí. For one thing - be respectful. Don't be a know-it-all prick. How they act towards you will depend a lot on the immediate evidence and your behaviour. Don't do anything that makes you arrestable. Don't struggle or run - you'll find an assault / resisting arrest charge added and that's more leverage against you. Don't give a false name or address. They deal with that crap all day and they will be checking out who you are. They'll give you opportunities to lie and get yourself in a knot - again, to use as leverage against you. That being said, don't answer any questions. Other than your name and address, all questions should be answered politely saying that you'd like to have a solicitor present first. Your instinct will be to say anything that gets you out of the situation as soon as possible. You adrenaline will maxed out and that will cause to speak without thinking, say easily provable lies, and it does absolutely nothing to get you out of trouble. The Gardaí may even try to give you a false sense of security that you don't have anything to worry about - that it's not you they are targeting etc. Don't believe it. Anything said is likely to end up in the Gardaí notebook and then in part of the file sent to the DPP. They are not your friends. If you are questioned, you may be asked to sign the Garda's notes. Read the fucking notes - make sure you don't put your signature to anything that says anything more than "he confirmed his name and address and that he would like access to a solicitor". At this point you could be arrested - maybe because of evidence on your phone or on the provider's phone. There may also be insufficient evidence to arrest you there and then, but that does not mean that charges cannot be brought against you later, or that you won't be asked to make an appointment at a Garda station later for questioning or a statement. In any case, the first thing you need is a good solicitor who specialises in criminal law. Don't try to google your way through the law on this one - your ignorance of it will be used against you.

The following days and months are going to be difficult if you're a normal human being who doesn't usually have run-ins with the law. There will be times you'll feel absolutely fine and disbelief that anything more will come of it. There will be other times where you'll be frozen with fear, questioning every step you took, everything you said, didn't say and overthinking every aspect of the day from the moment you called to the moment you left the Gardaí's presence. If you have anyone you can talk to about it - lucky you - do it. In most cases this is something we can only deal with ourselves, so do things to deal with the stress - exercise, meditation - whatever works. Try not to hit the alcohol as this can make the feelings worse, especially if you're having suicidal thoughts. Having meetings with your solicitor and having them handle communications with the Gardaí will help. At this point I have no further advice to give, because you should have your solicitor on board with the facts of your case, and dealing with them appropriately. But your solicitor will probably advise you that even if it goes no further, the incident will be recorded in Pulse (the Garda information system), aaaand is basically accessible to any Garda in the future. So have a think about your neighbours and family who might have access to Pulse.

wasn't there a law passed where they can ask you for pin of your phone anywhere so they can see all the porn and u riding that Guards wife? Only in Ireland would that happen

[bigmango]

wasn't there a law passed where they can ask you for pin of your phone anywhere so they can see all the porn and u riding that Guards wife? Only in Ireland would that happen

Once again - You love telling us what is going on in Ireland - You do not even live here.
The pompous condescending English have been doing this for years.

[WeeJimmy]

Once again - You love telling us what is going on in Ireland - You do not even live here.
The pompous condescending English have been doing this for years.

how are you Bigmango? i'm asking was there a law passed where you have to give you phone pin so seeing you are in Ireland you could enlighten me,
Most of the People living in Liverpool are Irish descent and love the Irish, I you

[WeeJimmy]

They can ask for your pin if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that your behaviour is contravening some law or other, you are now obliged by law to offer your pin under such circumstances.

They can't just walk up to you and demand your phone and pin number, you have rights and your privacy is protected by the constitution, Bunreact Na Heireann.

so they can then, they make up some excuse, theyre corrupt too and no doubt will abuse that power
over here you can video any interaction you have with the police, you can walk up to them and record the feckers and they can do nothing, they also have to tell you if they are recording you, they just can't switch on the bodycam without telling you and i read here the Police were trying to get it thru government where you could not record them, people have their rights too

[WeeJimmy]

Actually Liverpool is affectionately known as Ireland's 33rd county over here, I've heard that many times.

Scouse not English, isn't that what they say over there.

its like Glasgow, its even got more Irish

[WeeJimmy]

I've seen on YouTube, I'm subscribed to To Plod Or Not To Plod where he goes around British Police Stations recording the comings and goings of the police station.

He can record away and he doesn't even have to identify himself or give reasons as to what he is at, and there is not a thing that the cops can do to him, but some cops use the Anti Terrorist act and then things can sometimes get tricky for him.

There is another English fella came to Ireland and recorded some Garda Stations, and he didn't have to Identify himself either, cos recording in public, be it a Garda Station or not, is not breaking any law so he could refuse, as he did, to identify himself. Neither would he tell why he was recording the Garda Station. The Guards were not happy, especially when he wouldn't give his name, but due to our constitution, his right to privacy was protected as he wasn't contravening any laws.

So you don't have to identify yourself to a Garda, just because he asks you, your entitled to say no, and not break any laws by denying to give your name.

If you want to watch the English fella going around Irish Garda Stations, search YouTube for koleeberks. Search one month back on his videos and Mount Joy Garda Station is there, go back 2 months and Crumlin Garda Station is there, there are a few others also.

you see how they lie and How they themselves break the law and violate our rights and how they treat the general public, theyre all a shower of misfits,