"new law"

[Davidontour]

I find this lying about things a very disturbing trait among "antis". Not just "anti sex", but antis in general. Those opposed to abortion are quite capable of using entirely false statistics and false ideas—"post-abortion syndrome"—and how abortion leads to sterility (it doesn't) or breast cancer (it doesn't) and whatever. There are too many stories about nuns saying that condoms are pierced so they don't prevent conception to be disbelieved. And even "anti vaxxers"—those Americans in particular who are against vaccination against infectious diseases—are quite capable of inventing myths and stories about things that simply don't exist. A recent one was the use of the preservative thiomersal in some vaccines, claiming it caused autism. There wasn't any thiomersal in these vaccines.

Antis are certainly entitled their point of view: but why do they find it so necessary to lie? Are they totally deluded? Are their arguments so weak that they allow delusions? What is wrong with them?

And yet, I don't think I've ever seen anything "pro", whether pro-abortion or pro-choice, or pro vaccination, or pro sex work that contains downright lies.

From the 'antis' viewpoint, the end justifies the means. If only one person has been coercively trafficked in the last decade, that makes it OK to pretend the problem is huge, as the resultant legislation may prevent there being a second victim. Add to that a moral zealotry and considerable lucrative funding and the incentive to embellish, inflate and simply lie becomes irresistible.

Another factor is the bizarre situation where a court of law requires concrete proof to convict a suspect, but the law itself requires no actual proof in order to be passed by government.

Take the current anti-sex work legislation in the North. There were no requirements to pass this law, other than convincing 50+ MLAs, most of whom had no knowledge of sex work, to go with their prejudice and vote for it. By effectively barring current sex workers from the hearings and pushing a one-sided agenda, this was pushed through in the name of human trafficking, despite the fact that there hadn't been a single victim of coercive trafficking for prostitution all year.

The result is quite simply bad law with little or no basis in fact, creating a culture of lies and creating a dangerous precedent for the future.

[Empirical]

From the 'antis' viewpoint, the end justifies the means. If only one person has been coercively trafficked in the last decade, that makes it OK to pretend the problem is huge, as the resultant legislation may prevent there being a second victim. Add to that a moral zealotry and considerable lucrative funding and the incentive to embellish, inflate and simply lie becomes irresistible.

Another factor is the bizarre situation where a court of law requires concrete proof to convict a suspect, but the law itself requires no actual proof in order to be passed by government.

Take the current anti-sex work legislation in the North. There were no requirements to pass this law, other than convincing 50+ MLAs, most of whom had no knowledge of sex work, to go with their prejudice and vote for it. By effectively barring current sex workers from the hearings and pushing a one-sided agenda, this was pushed through in the name of human trafficking, despite the fact that there hadn't been a single victim of coercive trafficking for prostitution all year.

The result is quite simply bad law with little or no basis in fact, creating a culture of lies and creating a dangerous precedent for the future.

I don't disagree; the law in N Ireland is a nonsense, there is no real evidence behind it; and proving an offence in a court will be next to impossible—if the PSNI use their limited resources to investigate. The PSNI recently said that with the austerity cutbacks they would have to prioritise their activities. Somehow, I doubt that escorting comes high on their list of priorities.

But what irks me is that so many "antis" are prepared to lie, to dissemble, to bend the truth; and yet so many of them so clearly have a religious cast to their views. Since when was lying a basis for religious faith? Surely the two, lies and belief, are incompatible?

[Davidontour]

I don't disagree; the law in N Ireland is a nonsense, there is no real evidence behind it; and proving an offence in a court will be next to impossible—if the PSNI use their limited resources to investigate. The PSNI recently said that with the austerity cutbacks they would have to prioritise their activities. Somehow, I doubt that escorting comes high on their list of priorities.

But what irks me is that so many "antis" are prepared to lie, to dissemble, to bend the truth; and yet so many of them so clearly have a religious cast to their views. Since when was lying a basis for religious faith? Surely the two, lies and belief, are incompatible?

Unfortunately not. Religionists tend to use their belief system as a means to an end -- in the cases of sex work and gay issues for instance, the prejudice is already there -- the dogma merely gives it creedence. Christ himself had a lot to say on materialism and financial greed, but next to nothing on sexual matters. This is conveniently ignored by religionists, who cherry pick that which suits their prejudice.

Interestingly though, the swerf approach is remarkably similar. There is no room for argument or compromise, no empathy and no sense of the hypocrisy of their position. Zealatory is a common facet of human nature, not necessarily requiring religion, merely a strict adherence to a particular creed.

As such, lying is justified by being the means to an end, the notion of winning at all costs, regardless of the wrong-headedness of the cause or the impracticality of it's eventual implementation.

[Clueless]

I see that the govt are claiming success with the headshop laws as demand has gone down..

They will claim success on the same basis with clients not visiting escorts as it will also be against the law

Scare tactics alone to win the day...

[bollocks]

I don't disagree; the law in N Ireland is a nonsense, there is no real evidence behind it; and proving an offence in a court will be next to impossible—if the PSNI use their limited resources to investigate. The PSNI recently said that with the austerity cutbacks they would have to prioritise their activities. Somehow, I doubt that escorting comes high on their list of priorities.

But what irks me is that so many "antis" are prepared to lie, to dissemble, to bend the truth; and yet so many of them so clearly have a religious cast to their views. Since when was lying a basis for religious faith? Surely the two, lies and belief, are incompatible?

Liars are everywhere. Many or most, married men deceive their parners. Many unmarried men decive their girlfriends....Many escorts tell them back home that they are in a very respectable high powered job....And probably most understate theit earnings to Revenue....Some clients might even use stolen money to pay for their trips,,,Seems that what some former Archbishop in Nigeria did,,,and he suing RTE,,,
aS REGARDS PROSECUTIONS we will suddenly become aware of them in about a years time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Justice moves so slow,,,,,Ans I have been told by one escort that one judge frequently visits her (in the south).....One can imagine that any judge who gives harsh sentences, to set an example,,,,,,,,for the rest of us.................will be a client himself
There is nothing straight in this world

[bollocks]

Of course the PSNI, could collect all used condoms, and take them away for DNA examination, and then consult their records, and prosecute all the condom users.

At least that would be fair, and, JUST


As long as none of their members were involved.


Data Banks and Sperm Banks

[The Libertarian]

From the 'antis' viewpoint, the end justifies the means. If only one person has been coercively trafficked in the last decade, that makes it OK to pretend the problem is huge, as the resultant legislation may prevent there being a second victim. Add to that a moral zealotry and considerable lucrative funding and the incentive to embellish, inflate and simply lie becomes irresistible.

Another factor is the bizarre situation where a court of law requires concrete proof to convict a suspect, but the law itself requires no actual proof in order to be passed by government.

Take the current anti-sex work legislation in the North. There were no requirements to pass this law, other than convincing 50+ MLAs, most of whom had no knowledge of sex work, to go with their prejudice and vote for it. By effectively barring current sex workers from the hearings and pushing a one-sided agenda, this was pushed through in the name of human trafficking, despite the fact that there hadn't been a single victim of coercive trafficking for prostitution all year.

The result is quite simply bad law with little or no basis in fact, creating a culture of lies and creating a dangerous precedent for the future.

If no trafficked sex worker was found at all, the reason d'etre of certain Torler orgs would to an extent be gone re their interest in sex workers and a it lessens a revenue stream to them from government, so it's in their interest to always 'find'/invent a few!
Politicians are noted for being liars, however, they are probably in the haypenny place at this art compared to Irish NGOs in all aspects of Irish life!

[The Libertarian]

Of course the PSNI, could collect all used condoms, and take them away for DNA examination, and then consult their records, and prosecute all the condom users.

At least that would be fair, and, JUST


As long as none of their members were involved.


Data Banks and Sperm Banks

Even that would not prove that money or the promise of money had changed hands and from the PSNI POV it would be much more desirable (if they wished/had to and they don't!) to put intorable pressure on a sex worker to squeal or on a client to admit the 'crime' of having consensual sex with another adult!
Slightly over a month into the madness and escort locations are easily found and the PSNI don't seem to be perving outside apartments waiting for punters to prosecute them!
Rem in Nordieland, Justice Minister, David Forde was vehemently against the madness, down South, The Minister Foir Injustice, Frankie Fitzgerald, is a driving force behind it!
Police forces have hierarchical structures and the police follow the orders of their bosses, so expect a more proactive approach to enforcement in the Táig Republic, based probably on an even more insane law!

[The Libertarian]

I see that the govt are claiming success with the headshop laws as demand has gone down..

They will claim success on the same basis with clients not visiting escorts as it will also be against the law

Scare tactics alone to win the day...

Oh success will definitely be claimed with as much validity as Gobshite Gilmore claiming a couple of years ago that victory had been achieved re our circumstances V the EU re us having to pay debts that have absolutely nothing to do with us in the first place at obscene levels! Of course pre-election, he did promise us it would be his way or Frankfurt's way - well we obviously took one up the hole on his behalf and indeed ultimately our grandchildren will also!
On the 'legal high' laws, yes the header shops seem to have been reduced, but the legal high issues remains strong, because due to badly enacted rushed legislation, there's a giant loophole, it has to be proven that a substance is 'psychoactive' before it can be banned and this apparently is extremely dificult to prove and there have only been a handful of successful prosecutions!
The Brits were marvelling at the Irish law and were to use it as a basis for their own version, now they are seriously rethinking their proposed 'legal high' prohibition laws, in light of the chronic failure of the Irish one!

[Theomegaman]

Nothing was going to happen of mention in the North until the law was introduced in the South. And if the Minister gets her way and it gets blasted through before summer recess in the Dail , that's when you will see the change and the attitude change. Both forces will work together as they always do in these situations of cross border policing.
Either way if it doesn't come in down South until after the summer there will be no big worry until it does on both sides of the border. You can all give your opinions and thoughts and what you should do etc etc. The Law changes both sides nothing can be done.