Sexual offences Bill

[redone7010]

bottom line is, you have to be caught red handed to have clear evidence and that won't be easy. Just be careful and you should be okay. I'll stick with my regulars with PM until the dust settles.

You don`t need to be caught "red handed", as the law states agarda with reasonable grounds to suspect you were purchasing sexual favours can arrest and charge you.
In real terms,and as unconstitutional as it gets in my opinion, it will be up to you to prove you aren`t guilty.

[redone7010]

This will be my last post in this thread I reckon, I can't be bothered arguing this anymore.

I can see this definitely being enforced with those who solicit the use of street girls, but I still can't see it being policed when it comes to truly independent escorts no matter how hard I try, and here's why:

Yes it's true a garda could ring up a girl, pretend to be a client and get directions from her to her apartment. The girl sees him as another time-waster and doesn't think more of it. Then, it's also true he could wait outside said apartment watching for punters coming and going, and yes it's true that the silly wording of "Reasonable Grounds" could mean the Garda could at least try and get you to pay a fine if caught and you stupidly admit to anything. The law says the 1st offense is a fine of €500, NOT a court appearance (where did people get this from?)

BUT... how difficult it is going to be to identify punters coming and going will vary. If it's a quiet location, people coming and going will be obvious. Are they punters though? Couldn't they just be people visiting friends? How will the Garda know? On the other hand, if it's a busy city apartment block, there are going to be a lot of people coming and going so a would-be punter isn't going to stand out phone-to-ear or no phone-to-ear as long as he doesn't draw huge amounts of attention to himself.

Then, lets say the garda becomes convinced somebody who arrives and then leaves an hour later actually IS a punter. What do they do then? Hassle them and try and get them to admit to paying for sex? What if that person actually isn't a punter? It's highly possible in a busy city location, people aren't going to appreciate being hassled by the gardai into admitting into paying for sex if they haven't done so.

Even if the guy is a punter, can't he just deny everything and refuse to give away any information? Where's the proof they're going to have if they're just observing the door of an apartment block? Where's their justification going to be for demanding all this information from you?

And then... how many clients do escorts here have in a day? 3/4/5/6? Having to wait an extended period of time outside an apartment block with 24/7 style surveillance just to have a slim chance of catching a punter or two with zero proof or leverage to get them to admit to anything seems like a very fruitless thing to do. Then... how many escorts are in any one town/city at a time?

The task of adequately policing it is monumental. It just isn't going to happen, it doesn't even happen in countries that have the stupid "Nordic Model" law in the case of escorts. I'd be extremely surprised if they even go after punters AT ALL here. The only way it can realistically happen is if the Gardai are given the powers police forces like the Gestapo in Nazi Germany had, and thankfully we're not there yet.

TL;DR: It can't be policed and won't be in the case of independent escorts as long as the punter and escort alike keep their wits about them.

Anyway... I'm outta this thread.

If you are still reading this thread you really need to read this new law. The law will be that a first offence, if there arent other circumstances attached will be classed as an E offence, and as you say will carry a fine of E500, BUT THIS IS AFTER A COURT APPEARANCE AND A CONVICTION. There is no provision in this new law akin to a speeding offence where you can just pay a fine.
The rest of your post seems to centre on the "deny and they can do nothing", which again is incorrect. All a garda needs to do is stop you and if he is not convinced by your explaination, on him having reasonable suspicion then he can arrest and charge you.
After that it`s up to the judge.

[The Libertarian]

This will be my last post in this thread I reckon, I can't be bothered arguing this anymore.

I can see this definitely being enforced with those who solicit the use of street girls, but I still can't see it being policed when it comes to truly independent escorts no matter how hard I try, and here's why:

Yes it's true a garda could ring up a girl, pretend to be a client and get directions from her to her apartment. The girl sees him as another time-waster and doesn't think more of it. Then, it's also true he could wait outside said apartment watching for punters coming and going, and yes it's true that the silly wording of "Reasonable Grounds" could mean the Garda could at least try and get you to pay a fine if caught and you stupidly admit to anything. The law says the 1st offense is a fine of €500, NOT a court appearance (where did people get this from?)

BUT... how difficult it is going to be to identify punters coming and going will vary. If it's a quiet location, people coming and going will be obvious. Are they punters though? Couldn't they just be people visiting friends? How will the Garda know? On the other hand, if it's a busy city apartment block, there are going to be a lot of people coming and going so a would-be punter isn't going to stand out phone-to-ear or no phone-to-ear as long as he doesn't draw huge amounts of attention to himself.

Then, lets say the garda becomes convinced somebody who arrives and then leaves an hour later actually IS a punter. What do they do then? Hassle them and try and get them to admit to paying for sex? What if that person actually isn't a punter? It's highly possible in a busy city location, people aren't going to appreciate being hassled by the gardai into admitting into paying for sex if they haven't done so.

Even if the guy is a punter, can't he just deny everything and refuse to give away any information? Where's the proof they're going to have if they're just observing the door of an apartment block? Where's their justification going to be for demanding all this information from you?

And then... how many clients do escorts here have in a day? 3/4/5/6? Having to wait an extended period of time outside an apartment block with 24/7 style surveillance just to have a slim chance of catching a punter or two with zero proof or leverage to get them to admit to anything seems like a very fruitless thing to do. Then... how many escorts are in any one town/city at a time?

The task of adequately policing it is monumental. It just isn't going to happen, it doesn't even happen in countries that have the stupid "Nordic Model" law in the case of escorts. I'd be extremely surprised if they even go after punters AT ALL here. The only way it can realistically happen is if the Gardai are given the powers police forces like the Gestapo in Nazi Germany had, and thankfully we're not there yet.

TL;DR: It can't be policed and won't be in the case of independent escorts as long as the punter and escort alike keep their wits about them.

Anyway... I'm outta this thread.

I hope You are right, but I cannot help thinking You are in a bit of denial on this serious matter! Though, this law will be almost inevitably unconstitutional (and certainly Lara Lee among'st others will be prepared to take a case! Though this takes time!) Also there is a higher standard of prove required in Irish law than in Swedish law to gain a conviction before the courts!
You are also most definitely entitled to equal treatment before the law! That's of course even more so for the D4 Knacker brigade who misrule us!

[The Libertarian]

The heads of bill say nothing of the sort. Here's were people got the real facts from:

Head 10 New section 5A in Act of 1993
(offence of purchasing sexual services)

Provide that –
The following section is inserted after section 5 of the Act of 1993
“Offence of purchasing sexual services

5A(1) For the purposes of this head, the term “sexual service” shall have the same
meaning as the term “sexual activity.”

(2) Where, in the context of prostitution, any person who purchases a sexual service
from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary
conviction to:

(a) a class E fine, in the case of a first conviction, or

(b) a class D fine, in the case of a second or subsequent conviction.

(4) Any person who attempts to purchase a sexual service from another person, in
any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary
conviction to a class E fine.


Fine classes
A summary offence is one which can only be dealt with by a judge sitting without a jury, that is, the District Court. Under the Fines Act 2010, since January 2011 there are 5 categories or classes of maximum fine applying to summary convictions. If someone is liable on summary conviction to a particular class of fine, the maximum fine is as given below. For example, the maximum fine for class B is €4,000.

Fine Class A B C D E
Maximum fine €5,000 €4,000 €2,500 €1,000 €500

Again 2 terms stand out
'In any Place' this gives our great and good extraterritorial powers to convict Irish punters abroad, which is absolutely insane and
'In the context of prostitution', does this mean that if I offered Frances Fitzgerald, 5 cents for OWO after some anal (also of course included in the price offered) that I could not be convicted because as far as we know, our beloved Minister For Justice is not a prostitute?
Also are non penetrative S and M activities, sexual activities?
Oh and also where now lies making pornography in Ireland or indeed porn itself?

[The Libertarian]

female garda commissioner + female justice minister = inevitability

Of course the other major law officer in the state the AG is a woman from a Fake Socialist party background!
However in fairness their gender has absolutely nothing to do with their support for this proven insanity which will mainly serve to make life hell on earth for female sex workers!
UK Home Secretary, Theresa Maye, is implacably opposed to the madness and has had great positive interactions with UK sex workers over the years in her professional capacity and knows the score very well and she is a lady!
The gobshites supporting this, seem in part to be cynical, out of their depth and with both an air of wishing to see, female sex workers whom they view as giving it away to cheaply, suffer as well as men! THEY ARE NOT FEMINISTS!

[Zealot7]

If you are still reading this thread you really need to read this new law. The law will be that a first offence, if there arent other circumstances attached will be classed as an E offence, and as you say will carry a fine of E500, BUT THIS IS AFTER A COURT APPEARANCE AND A CONVICTION. There is no provision in this new law akin to a speeding offence where you can just pay a fine.

Well you've baited me into another post in this thread, I'll give you that.

I've looked at it since and you're correct. The involvement of the court kind of makes the whole thing even more ridiculous and un-workable to implement and adequatlely police.

The rest of your post seems to centre on the "deny and they can do nothing", which again is incorrect. All a garda needs to do is stop you and if he is not convinced by your explaination, on him having reasonable suspicion then he can arrest and charge you.

Maybe... maybe not. Would merely entering and then exiting an apartment block an escort is working from be enough? It seems awfully flaky to consitute "Reasonable Grounds".

Anyway, talking about this is getting depressing and tiresome. Farewell for me to this thread (for real this time!).

[slavetoyou]

Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald today said she hopes to have the new sexual offences bill before the oireachtas
before the summer recess . The Lady aint for moving i guess

I wonder how much she will charge us for a sexual offence? What will be the vat rate on the bill? How's going to pay it? Will sexual offences be metered? Irish water is a complete disaster not sure how Irish Sex will go down, there is no way I am allowing some hairy contractor put a sex meter on my penis, think of the embarrassment of being surrounded by men in hi-viz vests, red and white barriers and a bunch of protesters, it would be too much.

[oscarmilde]

Well you've baited me into another post in this thread, I'll give you that.

I've looked at it since and you're correct. The involvement of the court kind of makes the whole thing even more ridiculous and un-workable to implement and adequatlely police.


Maybe... maybe not. Would merely entering and then exiting an apartment block an escort is working from be enough? It seems awfully flaky to consitute "Reasonable Grounds".

Anyway, talking about this is getting depressing and tiresome. Farewell for me to this thread (for real this time!).

If someone gets taken in on ''a reasonable belief' and fined this must surely be unconstitutional as the principle in most criminal law systems is that guilt must be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Beyond reasonable doubt goes much further than a reasonable belief. There must surely be grounds for challenging the validity of the law. It could easily lead to innocent people being convicted

[The Libertarian]

I wonder how much she will charge us for a sexual offence? What will be the vat rate on the bill? How's going to pay it? Will sexual offences be metered? Irish water is a complete disaster not sure how Irish Sex will go down, there is no way I am allowing some hairy contractor put a sex meter on my penis, think of the embarrassment of being surrounded by men in hi-viz vests, red and white barriers and a bunch of protesters, it would be too much.

There may very well be an element of this in that it will be about fine collection as much policing in Ireland is, as it stands, with the Government becoming the biggest pimp of them all in this instance!
Of course only working class punters will be fined as the great and the good and of course our politicians and the Pigz will get a free pass on this one, indeed it opens up further the cesspit of corruption in this neptocracy/kleptocracy further!

[redone7010]

If someone gets taken in on ''a reasonable belief' and fined this must surely be unconstitutional as the principle in most criminal law systems is that guilt must be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Beyond reasonable doubt goes much further than a reasonable belief. There must surely be grounds for challenging the validity of the law. It could easily lead to innocent people being convicted

I have no doubt there are grounds for a challenge to the validity of this law, but can you see anyone doing such seeing as the state would undoubyly contest it all the way to the supreme court?