Sexual offences Bill

[redone7010]

That's for sure, that's why the punishment will be a system of fines rather than court appearances. The authorities won't have a leg to stand upon because of the lack of evidence with a client who's careful and refuses to admit anything to the authorities. The burden of proof is just simply too high. As a client all you'll have to do in the unlikely event you're harassed by the authorities is deny it up all avenues.

You'd be surprized too, there are many examples of laws that authorities actually don't want to be challenged because they just wouldn't stand up in court. It's easy to find examples.

This new law is not set up like the law for speeding where you can just pay a fine.
It`s prosecution through the courts.and with the establishment of this new garda unit, it looks as if they are confident that it will stand up barring it being challenged to the supreme court.

[redone7010]

It's 2016 at the earliest before this hits the press!!

If read recently that the minister says it will be before the summer recess of the Dail. June/July 2015

[redone7010]

I can show him the painting as exhibit A. What evidence has the garda.
If the artist is called to give evidence and says yes she sold me the painting what am I being convicted of.

And the likelyhood of the artist turning up in court, seeing as it will be up to you to have her there to back your story, I`d imagine could be pretty slim

[PaddyReilly]

Let me put it another way.

There's a lady in our town who paints erotic pictures.

Shes a free spirit as most artist are and she is very promiscuous. (any laws broken so far).

I visit her studio purchase one of her paintings and she seduces me .

I leave with painting under my arm. What law have I broken.

Subsequently it appears that said lady is banging every guy who buys one of her paintings. Shes quite open about it. Even says on the "Artists Ireland Site" that any one who comes to her studio and buys one of her paintings is likely to be seduced as she finds guys who are interested enough in her art to buy her paintings a big turn on.

Have I paid her for a painting or have I paid her for sex.

If the law says Ive paid her for sex then no sales person in this country could ever have sex with a client without it being construde as illegal.

Go to any exhibition in the RDS and see the Sales people flirting with their customers. Some of them will end up in bed with their customers and reach their sales targets. Who's breaking the law.

When the public realize that this law could be used to target any individual in such a situation they will be very afraid. Look at the Ian Bailey case to see how the Gardai have misused the law to target people they had no evidence against.

Civil liberties group should be contacted to explore how this law might infringe on any ordinary citizens right to do business and be promiscuous and or have personal relationships with their customers if they want to.

[mexicanpete]

Under this new law that is all he has to do. Stand up in court and say he had a premises under observation that he suspected people were visiting for the purpose of buying sexual services. He stopped and asked a number of people, all of whom are in court today, as to why they were visiting said premises, and none gave did a relpy that allayed his suspicion. Judge looks down the court at the rest of the accused and that I`m very much afraid is it.
Even if you come up with a story that will get you out of court without a conviction, the media will still cover it with you being named, in at the very least, the local papers. Either way, as far as the garda are concerned its a win win for them.

What you are saying is that the entire basis of our legal system which is that someone is innocent until proven guilty will change to someone being innocent until some policeman’s suspicions are not allayed!! That is good news because there is not the remotest chance of something like that getting through the Supreme Court.

[grypwr85]

I see this new law as just a scare tactic. I can't see how it can be enforced without a confession. As most ladies work from an apartment it would mean that even if there is surveiilance it can only be done outside the apartment complex. The Gardai can't exactly hang around outside the lady's door and wait for clients to come along and knock. Also, how will the Gardai know what apartment, or for that matter, what apartment complex the lady is working out of. Sure, they will know the general areas where ladies work so does that mean every person has to have a solid reason to be in the area.

What if your friend lived in the complex and you called in for a cup of tea and a chat? You're seen going in and leaving 45 minutes later. Are you now a suspect of a criminal act simply because of the area you are in? Say a man lives in one of these apartments, it's a Garda's first time surveilling the building so he's never seen the man before, the man comes home from work, he just happens to be on his phone as he enters his building but realizes he needs to go to the shop 30 minutes later so he leaves the complex. Will he be now a suspect of a criminal offence and have to explain what he is doing in the area? Are the Gardai going to stop and question everyone who leaves an apartment complex? If so, I don't think the general residents would be too happy.

If you visit an apartment complex where a known drug dealer lives are you now suspected of using drugs? I have been to these apartments many times for partys or sessions where I would ring the occupant to let them know I was outside and to let me in.

My point is there is absolutely no way a conviction can be made without a confession or a Garda actually witnessing the event. Even by having a number on your phone which is suspected as being an escorts is still circumstantial. Doesn't prove a thing. "I was chating to a girl online, she gave me her number, as it turns out when I met her in person I wasn't interested. I was polite, stayed and chatted for a while and left. Prove otherwise. We were discreet about giving each other too much info about ourselves so I don't know too much about her details and I suspect she gave me a fake name as I did to her."

Just be vigilant with regards to what you say over the phone and what content is on your phone and don't crack under Garda intimidation and you'll be fine. At least that's my two cents anyway.

[xcitedcork]

That is the case for speeding cameras operated by civilians. A garda with a speeding gun will stop you, tell you the speed you were doing and you will be issued with a demand for a fixed sum depending on the speed you were doing, and your licence endorsed with penalty point, all on the garda`s word. If you want to contest it, you can then go to court.
This new law is set up to operate on much the same principle with out the opportunity to pay the fine without going to court.
The charge will be on the garda`s word without the need for any proof on his part.
People can dance around this all they like, but that is the reality of this new law. Basically you will be regarded guilty unless you can prove otherwise.

Lads really get a grip.
What you ignore completly from your own example is the speed gun.it is not the guard that is stating your broke the law he is giving evidence to what the gun registered was your speed.
The only law that allows a guards opinion as basis for law is the offences against the state act which only allows a chief superintendant give evidence to being a member of an illegal organisation, i think ill delete my membership to the ass appreciation society just in case.
Like othes have said once you deny, there is nothing that can be done unless it was a sting. This new law while causing everyone to fear seems to me to be extra leverage in the war against the organised crime brothels massage parlors etc which if there is trafficing going on, is where the majority will be. To this end we should welcome some attention put on organised crime.
As for the rest of us for some reason some of you are really trying to scare off some people with ridiculous statements about being arrested for coming out of a premises, for fuck sake even for drinking after hours you have to be found ON the premises. A million reason could be given for coming out of a premises, shes a friend and had trouble with the tv, needed help moving a warddrobe etc.cross dressing party
The only way to be caught even with new laws is either sting or the real likelyhood of owning up yourself.as for guard taking you to the station it cant happen.

EI surely with all this nonsense a legal opinion can be stated at this stage by a professional as maybe then certain people will stop the ridiculiuos statements

[redone7010]

Let me put it another way.

There's a lady in our town who paints erotic pictures.

Shes a free spirit as most artist are and she is very promiscuous. (any laws broken so far).

I visit her studio purchase one of her paintings and she seduces me .

I leave with painting under my arm. What law have I broken.

Subsequently it appears that said lady is banging every guy who buys one of her paintings. Shes quite open about it. Even says on the "Artists Ireland Site" that any one who comes to her studio and buys one of her paintings is likely to be seduced as she finds guys who are interested enough in her art to buy her paintings a big turn on.

Have I paid her for a painting or have I paid her for sex.

If the law says Ive paid her for sex then no sales person in this country could ever have sex with a client without it being construde as illegal.

Go to any exhibition in the RDS and see the Sales people flirting with their customers. Some of them will end up in bed with their customers and reach their sales targets. Who's breaking the law.

When the public realize that this law could be used to target any individual in such a situation they will be very afraid. Look at the Ian Bailey case to see how the Gardai have misused the law to target people they had no evidence against.

Civil liberties group should be contacted to explore how this law might infringe on any ordinary citizens right to do business and be promiscuous and or have personal relationships with their customers if they want to.

I imagine in many cases escorts are visited to play out fantasies, but I`m afraid it is going to be a fantasy too far to think an escort will advertise as you describe without the garda taking it as a slight on them and harassing her until she leaves town. No escort is going to leave herself open to that by advertising what you suggest in my opinion.
This law is designed to make only punters afraid to visit escorts, the general public will not give two hoots and can you really see any civil liberties group taking a stand to protect prostitution?

[redone7010]

What you are saying is that the entire basis of our legal system which is that someone is innocent until proven guilty will change to someone being innocent until some policeman’s suspicions are not allayed!! That is good news because there is not the remotest chance of something like that getting through the Supreme Court.

Basically that is how it is going to work. The same happens every day of the week in courts in Ireland where judges take the gardai`s word over that of the accused when evidence is inconclusive.
An appeal through the courts with the State contesting it every step of the way up too and including the Supreme Court could get a conviction under this new law overturned possibly, but in reality can you honestly see a punter doing this, with the costs alone it would entail?

[Zealot7]

Under this new law that is all he has to do. Stand up in court and say he had a premises under observation that he suspected people were visiting for the purpose of buying sexual services. He stopped and asked a number of people, all of whom are in court today, as to why they were visiting said premises, and none gave did a relpy that allayed his suspicion. Judge looks down the court at the rest of the accused and that I`m very much afraid is it.
Even if you come up with a story that will get you out of court without a conviction, the media will still cover it with you being named, in at the very least, the local papers. Either way, as far as the garda are concerned its a win win for them.

This new law is not set up like the law for speeding where you can just pay a fine.
It`s prosecution through the courts.and with the establishment of this new garda unit, it looks as if they are confident that it will stand up barring it being challenged to the supreme court.

You've been a staunch arguer of that view throughout most of the thread thus far, but here's a question - do you have any evidence to suggest what you're saying ie. the need for proof being totally abandoned with the Gardai? or that the cases are actually going to go to court?

Is that the way it's done in Sweden or Norway?

I'm just not seeing it - a new Garda unit with a budget supposedly in the few million € actively sitting outside escorts apartments, harassing punters who come and go trying to get them to admit purchasing sex, being given complete impunity to implicate people on their word - removing all burden of proof, engaging in stings (like the US) and then every case going to court. Given how inefficient everything to do with the government is and has been, it seems impossible to me.