It's a great article -- I have one question ...

[Meursault]

You having a conversation w someone else ?

I never said Putin wants WW III. : I said "surely he wouldn't " .

that was another poster.....

Perhaps we are in agreement ?

perhaps we have come to an uneasy alliance. my enemies enemy is my friend....

[Stephanie]

that was another poster.....


perhaps we have come to an uneasy alliance. my enemies enemy is my friend....

I would never live like that .


My criteria for 'friendship' is much more stringent .

[joggon]

"Where was the need for the USA and NATO to aggressively pursue the re militarization of eastern Europe"

: in light of recent Russian actions , it would seem that having and maintaining a 'presence' + NATO , was in fact

strategically sound , and was wrought with due foresight .[/QUOTE]

its a bit like witch came first , i would be inclined to think that the expansion of NATO was an unnecessary provocation .
When discussing Georgia (in EE )you have to take into account all the reassurances from the state department to the leader of
Georgia that the USA and NATO would stand beside them .
http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/region...e-fallout.aspx

another article to consider by Noam Chomsky
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200809--2.htm

and btw its not personal people in the free world (whats left of it ) can have different opinions and still be friends

[Meursault]

its a bit like witch came first , i would be inclined to think that the expansion of NATO was an unnecessary provocation .
When discussing Georgia (in EE )you have to take into account all the reassurances from the state department to the leader of
Georgia that the USA and NATO would stand beside them .
http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/region...e-fallout.aspx

another article to consider by Noam Chomsky
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200809--2.htm

and btw its not personal people in the free world (whats left of it ) can have different opinions and still be friends

chomsky is a genius with regards the cynicism of the media. Its amazing how many people from jewish backgrounds particularly in america who are just clued in with how the world works. They seem to see the pattern in the world.

Hyman minsky was another genius

[habebe2]

and isn't it the case that the present government of ukraine came to power by staging a coup and ousting the elected party, funny that - seems democracy is ok so long as it gives the 'right' result demanded by the so-called west.
Much more to this than meets the eye

[joggon]

and isn't it the case that the present government of ukraine came to power by staging a coup and ousting the elected party, funny that - seems democracy is ok so long as it gives the 'right' result demanded by the so-called west.
Much more to this than meets the eye

do the american audience do not see the irony in this ?

[juicytgirls]

very interesting article thanks

[doodlebug]

As always there are two sides to every story and it is difficult to decipher truth from propaganda. The truths as I see them from contacts in Ukraine is that the people were split fairly evenly in favour of the ruling party and protesting against the elected government. The destabilisation that began, before Putin moved into Crimea, has continued with nearly 3000 dead and the infrastructure completely destroyed. The people are unable to leave the country by air as the airports have been destroyed in the fighting.

It has been argued by others, more educated in the subject than me, that the destabilisation was accelerated by a promise from John Kerry to support the anti government protests and provide whatever was needed (until that point the protests had been peaceful), this promise preceeded the invasion of Crimea.

I do not know the truth of the situation, but I do not believe that NATO intervention, either directly or by inviting Ukraine to join would be a good move. I fail to see how further militarising the situation and moving closer to war can solve or bring peace.

Interestingly the ISIS situation has been referred to, my simple analysis in that is that the rise of ISIS has come about because the west was too quick to support rebels in Libya, Egypt, Iraq etc and didn't examine with enough detail who they were helping into power. I have no truck with ISIS and I do fear their rise, but they are (like Saddam) a product of shortsighted foreign policy by both the EU and US.

All that having been said, do I have a solution to the undoubted suffering in Ukraine and elsewhere, no. I do know from my own experience that living under a regime that you feel is there as an oppressor, regardless of the world view, is not fun.

[Playitsam]

I must say this has been a very intelligent and informative thread , with well presented argument

Thanks Stephanie and Meursault

[Stephanie]

As always there are two sides to every story and it is difficult to decipher truth from propaganda. The truths as I see them from contacts in Ukraine is that the people were split fairly evenly in favour of the ruling party and protesting against the elected government. The destabilisation that began, before Putin moved into Crimea, has continued with nearly 3000 dead and the infrastructure completely destroyed. The people are unable to leave the country by air as the airports have been destroyed in the fighting.

It has been argued by others, more educated in the subject than me, that the destabilisation was accelerated by a promise from John Kerry to support the anti government protests and provide whatever was needed (until that point the protests had been peaceful), this promise preceeded the invasion of Crimea.

I do not know the truth of the situation, but I do not believe that NATO intervention, either directly or by inviting Ukraine to join would be a good move. I fail to see how further militarising the situation and moving closer to war can solve or bring peace.

Interestingly the ISIS situation has been referred to, my simple analysis in that is that the rise of ISIS has come about because the west was too quick to support rebels in Libya, Egypt, Iraq etc and didn't examine with enough detail who they were helping into power. I have no truck with ISIS and I do fear their rise, but they are (like Saddam) a product of shortsighted foreign policy by both the EU and US.

All that having been said, do I have a solution to the undoubted suffering in Ukraine and elsewhere, no. I do know from my own experience that living under a regime that you feel is there as an oppressor, regardless of the world view, is not fun.

Isis would not have happened except for cynical , misguided US intervention in Iraq . Imo . Tragic , that whole fiasco.


At this moment Ukrainian people in the path of the separatist (Russian) troops , are linking hands

to form a human chain in an effort to stop the occupation of their land.

In the meantime Putin is now pushing for Statehood for eastern Ukraine , now referring to the region as 'New Russia' .

He is forcing and dictating a neighboring Sovereign State's internal policy. Like w.t.heck ?

It's preposterous. And wrong.

People dying.


It would seem that Merkel was the 'point man' on the now failed negotiations with Russia.

Up until yesterday they had conducted their conversation in a most cordial manner , as if Putin was just a

concerned neighbor and not the orchestrator of the situation. Merkel played the carrot and the stick .

Carrot being normalized relationship with EU , stick being further sanctions. Clearly it hasn't worked.

Now Putin has moved from covert operations to overt aggression , no longer even bothering with cloak and dagger.

I don't know where it will lead , but I very much feel for those people ousted from their homes , dying by the scores.

Imo not standing up to a bully is never a good strategy. Not in the long run anyways.





Actually Putin's likely aim is to occupy sufficient territory to connect a landmass / corridor all the way down to Crimea.

And then what ?