Shatter Todays Irish Times

[zoozoozoo]

In Thursdays Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime...laws-1.1624962


Minister for Justice Alan Shatter has asked for advice from the Attorney General and the Minister for Health on a proposal to criminalise the purchase of sexual services.

Mr Shatter is seeking his colleagues’ opinions on a report by the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, which recommends that the prostitution laws be changed so as to make it a summary offence to buy sexual services. The committee has also recommended that requesting or attempting to pay for sex should also be made an offence, but says it should be clarified in law that the prostitute selling sex would not be committing an offence.

In correspondence between Mr Shatter and the committee, published yesterday, Mr Shatter raised a number of concerns about the proposals and asked for further queries to be addressed.

He referred to the “great difficulty” in determining with any certainty the extent to which prostitution in Ireland was engaged in voluntarily between consenting adults and the extent to which coercion was involved. He noted “sharp divergences” on this point in evidence given to the committee.

In the letter, dated October 2nd, Mr Shatter wrote that despite the “wide spectrum in terms of the nature of prostitution in Ireland”, ranging from human trafficking to the purchase or sale of sexual services between fully consenting adults, the committee “appears to be recommending a broadly applicable and indiscriminate offence”.

He added: “My concern is that, as legislators, we have to be careful not to overreach in terms of criminalising human conduct.

“In establishing criminal offences, legislators must be mindful of the legal and constitutional rights of both victims and offenders.”

Mr Shatter said that, in light of the knowledge deficit about prostitution in Ireland, the “apparent blanket ban” on the purchase of sexual services, as proposed by the committee, raised issues about proportionality. He said a “Swedish-style offence”, meaning the criminalisation of the purchase of sex, would represent a “fundamental departure” from the principles underpinning the existing offence of solicitation in the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993.

“This is a gender-neutral offence and criminalises all parties to the transaction, ie, the buyer, the seller and any third-party involved (a pimp, for example). In addition, the penalty structure distinguishes between first and subsequent offences.”

[westcorklad]

In Thursdays Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime...laws-1.1624962


Minister for Justice Alan Shatter has asked for advice from the Attorney General and the Minister for Health on a proposal to criminalise the purchase of sexual services.

Mr Shatter is seeking his colleagues’ opinions on a report by the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, which recommends that the prostitution laws be changed so as to make it a summary offence to buy sexual services. The committee has also recommended that requesting or attempting to pay for sex should also be made an offence, but says it should be clarified in law that the prostitute selling sex would not be committing an offence.

In correspondence between Mr Shatter and the committee, published yesterday, Mr Shatter raised a number of concerns about the proposals and asked for further queries to be addressed.

He referred to the “great difficulty” in determining with any certainty the extent to which prostitution in Ireland was engaged in voluntarily between consenting adults and the extent to which coercion was involved. He noted “sharp divergences” on this point in evidence given to the committee.

In the letter, dated October 2nd, Mr Shatter wrote that despite the “wide spectrum in terms of the nature of prostitution in Ireland”, ranging from human trafficking to the purchase or sale of sexual services between fully consenting adults, the committee “appears to be recommending a broadly applicable and indiscriminate offence”.

He added: “My concern is that, as legislators, we have to be careful not to overreach in terms of criminalising human conduct.

“In establishing criminal offences, legislators must be mindful of the legal and constitutional rights of both victims and offenders.”

Mr Shatter said that, in light of the knowledge deficit about prostitution in Ireland, the “apparent blanket ban” on the purchase of sexual services, as proposed by the committee, raised issues about proportionality. He said a “Swedish-style offence”, meaning the criminalisation of the purchase of sex, would represent a “fundamental departure” from the principles underpinning the existing offence of solicitation in the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993.

“This is a gender-neutral offence and criminalises all parties to the transaction, ie, the buyer, the seller and any third-party involved (a pimp, for example). In addition, the penalty structure distinguishes between first and subsequent offences.”

He might have concerns but at the end of the day he is still a politician who will want to hold on to his seat in the next general election,and unfortunately the general perception that all escorts/prostitutes are forced into providing sexual services against their will is likely to be the one that he will act upon.

[milkman]

Can't disagree too much with Shatter in this piece . Recognises the importance of distinguishing 'consenting adults' and 'coercion' which i think all genuine, right-minded people support and the contrasting claims of coercion.

Happy to see his reluctance on the 'apparent blanket ban' and the absence of 'proportionality' though whilst the AG consultation is obvious , i don't get Min of Health James Reilly's advice being warranted.

Overall, glad to see Alan Shatter is deliberately mindful of the the consequences of what the JOC proposed.

Regarding the next election, Shatter is a shoo-in in his constituency and i've no doubt his stance on this issue will be thoroughly in good faith.

[funlover12]

I was going to make a thread pointing out the last paragraph [actually Im referring another article from the same paper someone posted athread about in general earlier], it was so refreshing to see he can still see through all the wool they are trying to cover his eyes with

also I had the IT down as a rhuama controlled, so refreshing to now read this in their paper

[dob]

I was going to make a thread pointing out the last paragraph [actually Im referring another article from the same paper someone posted athread about in general earlier], it was so refreshing to see he can still see through all the wool they are trying to cover his eyes with

also I had the IT down as a rhuama controlled, so refreshing to now read this in their paper

Yes, without the guff in the independent article you referee to. Shatter doesn't seem to buy into the sex worker always as a victim nonsense of ruhama and the client as an exploitor peddled by Imigrant council of Ireland and Rachel Moran.

[dob]

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-29831326.html

Shatter in hot water over 'older' prostitutes remarks


MICHAEL BRENNAN DEPUTY POLITICAL EDITOR – 12 DECEMBER 2013

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter has been criticised after warning against criminalising people who are buying sex if prostitutes had clearly "initiated the transaction"

He raised concerns about cases where prostitutes turned out to be "significantly older" than a young person who was buying sex "perhaps for the first time".

Mr Shatter was responding to a Dail report calling on him to change the law so that only those who hire prostitutes are prosecuted.

Under the current law, prostitution is not illegal but seeking to sell sex in a public place, operating brothels and pimping are all offences.

Mr Shatter told the cross-party Oireachtas Justice committee that its proposed criminalisation of all buyers of sex raised questions about "the principles of equality" in the current law.

"This proposed immunity for the seller would preclude the prosecution of, for example, a prostitute or sex worker who clearly initiated the transaction or is significantly older than a young adult who purchased sexual services and perhaps for the first time," he wrote.

His comments drew a strong response from the justice committee, and last night, Ruhama, a group that represents victims of prostitution, said it was "disappointed" with the minister.

Geraldine Rowley of Ruhama told the Irish Independent: "We have just gone through a consultation process where there were 800 submissions and hearings, which included survivors of prostitution, which clearly presented the harm of prostitution.

"We welcomed the unanimous recommendation that came from that Oireacthas Committee to criminalise the buying of sex and we call on the minister to act on that decision and we are disappointed with the comments by the minister."

She said Ireland had "a serious problem" with organised prostitution and criminalisation had already proven to be a deterrent in a number of countries where it was introduced.

The chairman of the Oireachtas Justice Committee, Fine Gael TD David Stanton, has written back to the minister to say the vast majority of prostitutes here were migrant women from disadvantaged backgrounds, whereas the buyer was usually a "better-off man".

Mr Stanton agreed that it was nearly always prostitutes who initiated the transaction by advertising or offering sexual services. But he said the committee had taken into account the background of those involved in prostitution.

"There exists a body of international and national evidence indicating severe poverty, child sexual abuse, early home leaving and homelessness in the early lives of those who enter prostitution," he said.

Mr Stanton said the justice committee wanted to criminalise the buyers of sex to reduce the demand for prostitution because the current law was not working. He said that even if the buyer was younger, the prostitute was still a victim in the committee's eyes.

UPDATE

Mr Shatter has previously said that there is a need to update the 1993 law because prostitution is no longer street-based and has since moved largely indoors and is organised over the internet. And he has said prostitution has existed since time immemorial and that "no society has ever succeeded in abolishing it".

Mr Shatter is seeking advice from Attorney General Maire Whelan and Health Minister James Reilly on the committee's report before he publishes a bill to update the prostitution legislation.

The justice committee is hoping that publishing its correspondence by Mr Shatter will "stimulate debate" about the review of the prostitution legislation.

Irish Independent

[milkman]

A downside with the AG is that she is a Labour appointee so .........

I think a major weakness of those opposing the Swedish Model introduction at the JOC stage was not ensuring Pye Jakobsson made an appearance by hook or crook.The Committee's entire support for Swedish Model is predicated on the 'supposed' success which Jakobsson certainly would have debunked.

Obviously , a 'straight' Committee should have invited her anyway as a key participant but when dealing with a lobbied bunch.....

[Half Man and Half Dildo]

Alan Shatter just made it onto Ruhama's shit list.

Geraldine Rowley is a nun, but she doesn't wear the trappings of religious life because that would give their moralistic game away. A few years ago she was on the Pat Kenny show one morning and she said that Ruhama considered all the prostitutes in Ireland to be trafficked.

[Larrii]

...

In the letter, dated October 2nd, Mr Shatter wrote that despite the “wide spectrum in terms of the nature of prostitution in Ireland”, ranging from human trafficking to the purchase or sale of sexual services between fully consenting adults, the committee “appears to be recommending a broadly applicable and indiscriminate offence”.

He added: “My concern is that, as legislators, we have to be careful not to overreach in terms of criminalising human conduct.

“In establishing criminal offences, legislators must be mindful of the legal and constitutional rights of both victims and offenders.”

Mr Shatter said that, in light of the knowledge deficit about prostitution in Ireland, the “apparent blanket ban” on the purchase of sexual services, as proposed by the committee, raised issues about proportionality. He said a “Swedish-style offence”, meaning the criminalisation of the purchase of sex, would represent a “fundamental departure” from the principles underpinning the existing offence of solicitation in the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993.
..

Shatter is right about the broad spectrum, and at least he's worked as a lawyer.

I'd say the guards have told him that very few non-trafficked/consenting situations could ever be prosecuted. And the business lobby will know that many business visitors will want an escort or three when they come to Dublin.

Plus in terms of society you now have online dating and apps like Tinder that have changed life for many. They are his voters.

http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/marie-...-about-tinder/

Escorting via online is itself on a dating lifestyle spectrum, with the difference that you'll probably have a better time, with no strings, and you'll pay for that difference.

[Armoured]

A chink of sense at last