Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice hearings at 2pm

[samlad]

There are so many contradictions there and a lack of actual figures. For example, APT claim that 75% of prostitutes began as children, however Banardos state that half of prostitutes begin as children. Also, Sarah Benson states that regulating the sex industry is a 'Utopian' view, however, when she started reaming off her points, I thought the same about Ruhama's wish-list of policies.

The Anti-Trafficking Manager also felt that Legal Aid should not be available to people arrested for purchasing sex, but a good point was made that people are innocent until proven guilty, but I was quite shocked when she suggested that most clients are in a profession and Legal Aid shouldn't be an issue anyway. This contradicts Ruhama's report that 1 in 15 men drive a profitable trade.

The social scientists state that even after ten years of research, there is virtually no knowledge base regarding the sex industry, that conclusions are generalised and that there is no evidence to support that the Swedish model will be applicable to Ireland, adding that in the past two years, there has been lots of critical literature of the Swedish model.

Personally, I do think that there needs to be more conclusive studies with empirical results to support any legislation, be it pro or anti-prostitution, however in the meantime, those support groups should be working to help victims of the sex industry with the help of Government funding without prejudice.

[the traveller]

Were E-I invited to this hearing Sam? I had the feeling listening, that the committee want this "swedish model" introduced. That's why no sex workers were invited. Rachel, who made the effort to attend the last conference, didn't get an invite. They don't want any dissenting voices to attend so that they can disagree with their cronies in TORL.

[Banjaxed]

There are so many contradictions there and a lack of actual figures. For example, APT claim that 75% of prostitutes began as children, however Banardos state that half of prostitutes begin as children. Also, Sarah Benson states that regulating the sex industry is a 'Utopian' view, however, when she started reaming off her points, I thought the same about Ruhama's wish-list of policies.

The Anti-Trafficking Manager also felt that Legal Aid should not be available to people arrested for purchasing sex, but a good point was made that people are innocent until proven guilty, but I was quite shocked when she suggested that most clients are in a profession and Legal Aid shouldn't be an issue anyway. This contradicts Ruhama's report that 1 in 15 men drive a profitable trade.

The social scientists state that even after ten years of research, there is virtually no knowledge base regarding the sex industry, that conclusions are generalised and that there is no evidence to support that the Swedish model will be applicable to Ireland, adding that in the past two years, there has been lots of critical literature of the Swedish model.

Personally, I do think that there needs to be more conclusive studies with empirical results to support any legislation, be it pro or anti-prostitution, however in the meantime, those support groups should be working to help victims of the sex industry with the help of Government funding without prejudice.

The Legal Aid argument is redundant anyway as it has been held that for minor offences where there is no possibility of imprisonment that it is not required to be provided if the accused can otherwise get a fair trial. ICI's contention that any fine should be of a high nature, to "the rate that a man demands unprotected sex at" was also quite shocking for me. She also seemed to totally miss Deputy Mac Lochlainn's point in that it undermines the constitutionally protected presumption of innocence for ANYONE accused of the purchase of sex who is in wrong place at wrong time, not just actual clients.

The sheer lack of research is appalling, and yet these 69 organisations (no irony or pun there) are determined to ram through a legislative model with no benchmark to measure against, a complete disregard for those (who they admit exist) are sex workers by choice, in effect pulling the carpet out from under them because I am not sure how women can straddle both fences (i.e. enjoy legal protections while being exposed and discredited with clients and potentially never be able to work again in sex work should she come forward to report a crime against her due to notoriety with the gardai).

[samlad]

Were E-I invited to this hearing Sam? I had the feeling listening, that the committee want this "swedish model" introduced. That's why no sex workers were invited. Rachel, who made the effort to attend the last conference, didn't get an invite. They don't want any dissenting voices to attend so that they can disagree with their cronies in TORL.

No, we weren't.

[samlad]

There was also a very feministic focus in this committee, which is a shame because we know that many transexual escorts move from South America to Ireland to work so that they can afford to pay for their transgender treatments and escape the violent, homophobic cultures of their home countries. This is the choice of a better life where they are treated as equals in Ireland and the UK without fear of being beaten to death.

[Banjaxed]

This is the choice of a better life where they are treated as equals in Ireland and the UK without fear of being beaten to death.

This is what I think all independent sex workers want and one of the reasons why they do what they do. I am not convinced that they cannot be provided with this choice, safety and security in their working lives, rather than one-size fits all criminal legislation.

It's entirely possible to provide legal protection to sex workers, where they should not have to fear media harassment and stigma, and at the same time remove those who use sex workers as a method to carry out abuse.

[milkman]

From a purely ignorance point of view - is it possible to complain to somebody in power about the deliberate railroading of criminalisation legislation without appropriate balance from the contra view parties? Or is it simply a case of sending an email directly to alan shatter complaining of the completely shambolic process that was applied today? Should not SWAI start lobbying Alan Shatter on the same grounds?

[Morpheus]

Thanks Banjaxed for bringing this to our attention.

I haven't managed to catch any of the presentations, but am greatly saddened to see that the list of the invited seems to be entirely from the TORL and their pals (with the exception of Eilis Ward, who no doubt would have been shouted down).

The fact that escorts weren't invited is no surprise. It goes to show what we all know - the the TORL really don't care about escorts. Their intent has always been to stop escorts working regardless of what they say.

The labour party backed the Swedish model before coming into power, and I think this is evidence of them just trying to push things through. It makes mockery of the term public consultation!!

[Banjaxed]

From a purely ignorance point of view - is it possible to complain to somebody in power about the deliberate railroading of criminalisation legislation without appropriate balance from the contra view parties? Or is it simply a case of sending an email directly to alan shatter complaining of the completely shambolic process that was applied today? Should not SWAI start lobbying Alan Shatter on the same grounds?

I actually think Minister Shatter is quite aware of the real issues in relation to sex work, and is far from comfortable with the TORL organisations and their tactics. Without doubt Dr Eilis Ward and Dr Whyte were brilliant and really stressed the lack of evidence behind TORL.

What I think needs to be done is the members of the Committee receive the views of sex workers (and to a lesser extent) clients:

Likely Open minded

katherine.zappone@oireachtas.ie
padraig.maclochlainn@oireachtas.ie
alan.farrell@oireachtas.ie
paul.bradford@oireachtas.ie
martin.conway@oireachtas.ie
johnpaul.phelan@oireachtas.ie
david.stanton@oireachtas.ie
michael.creed@oireachtas.ie

Likely Pro-Swedish Model

finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie
ivana.bacik@oireachtas.ie
ronan.mullen@oireachtas.ie
anne.ferris@oireachtas.ie
niall.collins@oireachtas.ie
sean.kenny@oireachtas.ie
denis.odonovan@oireachtas.ie

As a general note Labour Party and Fianna Fail expressly back the Swedish model.

[milkman]

Thanks Banjaxed - great post as per usual. I do share your confidence in Alan Shatter but i do fear that pressure for criminalisation may sway the day unless as you say, those in the industry (particularly the escorts themselves ) start contacting the above. Really appreciate the list of emails and without putting anyone under duress , i do think the battle will be won / lost by the escorts themselves and their possible interactions with the people above.

A post from December 3rd i wrote in response to an artcle on Sunday Independent by Niamh Horan :


Naieve Naieve milkman but....

is it a reasonable suggestion (now that Ms Horan has opened the door) that a number of the eloquent intelligent escorts that live in this parish get together and contact Ms Horan at nhoran@independent.ie for the purposes of an informal meeting to discuss the actual realities of being a current day escort.There are plenty of hugely eloquent escorts here like LBT,Saoirse , Lillian,Kate,Raquel etc ( sorry for omissions but the list is literally endless) and organise to meet up and set out an actual agenda of yere frustarations to discuss with Ms Horan.
Things like : what the the day to day living of escorts is actually like , the need(?) for greater regulation , the good and bad episodes with clients , the sort of earnings that can be made , how sex workers can achieve geater rights etc.
Even more important to address is the need to expose the likes of ruhama and their naked hypocrisy that is bizarrely being enabled by a silent media . The hijacking of trafficking by the likes of Bacik,zappone and the feminists as a trojan horse to eliminate sex work because it offends their ideaologies.The way that the truly unfortunates of trafficking are just puppets by some organisations to fulfill their own agenda. The default position of arrested brothel sex workers as 'being trafficked' as it (understandably) prevents their own criminalistion whilset buffering ruhamas' 'trafficking' stats - the almost symbiotic reltionship between arrested sex worker and ruhama.

My penis prevents me from being a credble contributor (after all, in the eyes of many , i'm a deviant) but like many purchasrs of sex on this site,i'd be more than willing to meet Ms Horan to give my reasons for visiting escorts.

After all, we can all 'thank' each other for relevant intelligent posts but ultimately, we're all preaching to the converted on this website.Now that Ms Horan has published an article maybe now is the time to contact a female jounalist with the true story on what it like to be a modern day escort - warts and all.

Would Ms Horan be interested?I don't know.
Would Sindo publish the interviews? Again, I don't know.Though they have published pro-escort articles before from Jim Cusack and Eilis O Hanlon.
And lets be honest, would the Sindo forego the chance to publish the word 'Sex' on the front cover? Not likely .
In fact the Sindo probably would be interested in a serialisation of the whole sex industry from actual sex workers to punters if only for the titillation factor.As i said, as a punter, id be more than willing to meet Ms Horan (i'm sure other male candidates on this site would also be willing ) but ultimately ,the battle for the opinions of the lay people will be won by the escorts themselves. Maybe now via Ms Hoaran ,is the time that ye're voices should be heard......