Help us with the Turn off the Blue Lights Campaign - Your comments required urgently

[Bruno69]

Sandy, I didn't know escorts were licensed in amsterdam or elsewhere. I think it's a good idea. It also means each girl has some contact with the state which would help to alleviate any fear of looking for help if it is ever needed.

[Sexy Sandy 69]

I read an article about Amsterdam, instead of working against the escorts they decided to work with them, they realised that the girls were not going to stop working. They also have mobile medical vans going around testing the girls & giving them advice. They know who works & where. Sex tourism is a big business in Amsterdam, but at least it is regulated. This law of criminalizing is not going to benefit anyone at all. The Irish government should look at other alternative measures.

Sandy x

[Lincoln]

Hi Jackie, feel free to quote this in any Turn off the Blue Light forum:

"I am an Irish male in my 30's. I am on my own, I do not have any intimacy in my life. I didnt intend for this to be the way my life would turn out but as of this time I can't wave a magic wand a change this. I sometimes employ the services of escorts and do so with all respect given to the individual girls and women concerned. People opposed to prostitution in all froms will consider this a contradiction in terms. I used to feel motivated to oppose this view, now I don't care anymore. My advantage here is that I actually never lose sight of the humanity of sex workers and don't have to resort to crude stereotyping to get a point across.

Lets put resources into combating trafficking. Lets put resources into supporting rape and assault victims. Lets properly resource the investigation, arrest and trial of pimps.

Furthermore lets respect individual choice and lets stop resorting to a load of fallacy-ridden drivel to get a point across.

And lets be clear about this much: There will ALWAYS be a supply and demand for paid sex, lets accommodate that and look after all parties concerned.

[carlos marvado]

I believe that criminalising people who pay for consentual sexual activity with willing self-employed sex workers will create more problems than this proposed law is designed to solve.

Firstly, it will drive the escort business further underground (than it already is) and more into the control of those who are prepared to take risks for financial gain. Those escort clients who stand to lose most by being brought before the courts (even if a conviction is not achieved) will probably stop their escorting activity here and take their money outside of this jurisdiction. These will include many clients who would be reasonably well known in the community, those with good jobs, anybody in state employment, those who are married with families or in a relationship and anyone who would stand to lose either their reputation, job or family and home. Those clients who would remain, would to a large extend include those who have least to lose by getting a criminal conviction or being placed on the sex offenders list. The result of this would be a race to the bottom as escorts are forced to take more risks or indulge in riskier practices to make a living, see clients they might otherwise chose not to see. It would in fact make it more dangerous and difficult for escorts to work independently could force some into the "protective embrace" of agencies.

Secondly, from a purely economic point of view, forcing escort clients to travel abroad is not a great idea given the state of the Irish economy. Although touring escorts and many non-Irish residents who live here repatriate their earning to their home country, much as Irish emigrants in America and Britain sent money back home for centuries, they do also spend money here, which benefits the Irish economy. This includes flying with Aer Lingus or Ryanair, hotel or apartment accomodation, transport with Ireland (Plane/Rail/Bus/Taxi), food and general subsistance. If clients were forced to travel abroad for their sexual fun, there would be a much greater outflow from the Irish economy.

Thirdly, it is widely assumed by certain organisations, that escort clients are either dirty old man or depraved sexual deviants or misogynists. Maybe some are old, or dirty, or somewhat deviant in their sexual tastes, but the amount of money that it costs to see an escort here, means that many of them are in good well paid jobs and also well educated people. It has been stated before that clients see escorts for many reasons: company, excitement, variety. In many cases, I believe the availability of escorts actually benefits society in general.

How many men are stuck in loveless and possibly sexless relationships and only remain in this situation because they have an outlet for their sexual needs? Otherwise their frustrations could be far more damaging for family's wellbeing and unity. How many men for whatever reason (age, incapacity, looks, etc) have no realistic chance of physical intimacy with another person unless they pay for it? We have plenty of lonely people in our population and if visiting an escort makes them feel better about themselves, releases their emotional and physical tensions and gives them something to look forward to in their lives, I think this is money better spend than having to deal with the consequences of depression and other mental health issues at a latter stage.

Finally, we have spend decades in this country trying to get the Roman Catholic Church and those politicians who served it's purposes to take their noses and their laws out of our bedrooms. A woman's body is a woman's body and whether she decides of her own free will to use her intellect and brains, her charm and personality, her good looks, her voice, her athletic ability, her manual strenght or her sex to make the best living possible for herself, then that should be her right as a free person. The women's movement when campaigning over a woman's right to choice as regards a pregnancy coined a phrase "Keep your hands off our ovaries". In this case you should keep your hands off all our genitalia - female and male.

If as I suspect, the groundswell of pressure being exerted by certain misguided but well intentioned organisations, results in the next government bringing forward a law which criminalises those who pay for sex, it could prove difficult to police and secure a conviction. Given that the gardai are unlikely to be in a hotel bedroom or apartment bedroom when any money is handed over, it would be virtually impossible to differentiate between an escort/client situation where money had changed hands and one where the escort and gone out for an evening the night before, met a man in a pub/club, fell for his charm/looks/money and invited him round the next day for a coffee or a bit of how's your father. As long as the escort and client exchange real first names and he knows her real nationality and there is no evidence that the client gave her any money, then the police will have questions to answer for possibly breaking and entering and violating the privacy of a bedroom whilst two people were engaged in an act of love there. Given how badly our Dail screwed up time after time with the wording of pro-life amendments, this could all end up in a higher court where civil liberties and the right to privacy rather than prostitution will be the issue.

Our political, garda and judicial time and resources, not to mention tax payers money would be far better served by a campaign to tackle forced prostitution and sexual slavery and the traffickers and pimps engaged in this rather then targetting legitimate sole trader sex workers and their clients. This business has been around since a serpent tempted Eve with an apple and for as long as men have money and a labido and women can earn more money doing this then they could legitimately expect to make any other way it wont be going away. If certain organisations want to do something constructive about prostitution, they can start by trying to tackle poverty in the world, the status of women in certain parts of the world, spousal desertion, unemployment, lack of educational opportunities etc.

Yours etc.

C. Marvado

[Laylawman]

I read an article about Amsterdam, instead of working against the escorts they decided to work with them, they realised that the girls were not going to stop working. They also have mobile medical vans going around testing the girls & giving them advice. They know who works & where. Sex tourism is a big business in Amsterdam, but at least it is regulated. This law of criminalizing is not going to benefit anyone at all. The Irish government should look at other alternative measure

Sandy x

Sandy the Netherlands is changing very rapidly against prostitution. There is a real Lutheran backlash & a move to the right. The key to this is human rights. It is your right to earn a living & to sell your services. Any removal of that right is no different to removing the rights of women to not be coersed into prostitution. The message has to be kept very simple. This law would make prostitution illegal which is a huge step from where we are now.

[Jack in the Box]

I'm getting a letter ready to email to all the TD's and after that the councillors can be emailed. Everyone else should do the same.

Fair play to SWAI. They are standing up to this crowd of non-entities. The SWAI should be given as much assistance as possible.

What is required to put an ad up on Facebook to advertise the Turn off the blue light campaign? I thought that a picture of an attractive woman and an attractive man could be used in the ad. Would that be allowed by Facebook for copyright reasons etc.

[espresso]

hey Jack In the box
While I admire your desire to help
I am not convienced clients sending off leters will help.
We can easily be dismissed as perverted. Especially at the moment. If and when i real debate is happening maybe but at the moment and esp before the election we may need to hold off.
I feel it maybe down to the women working in the industry to lead the campaign although we can crtinally help
I have just contacted the swai again lending my support ans will paricipate in the run I advise everyone else to do so.

[Laylawman]

I think that doing anything now would be pointless & could serve to just stir up future problems. We do not know who will be elected or what their policy will be. It could be years before Ireland introduce legislation.

[espresso]

has anyone here been in contact with the sex workers alliance. They arent answering my emails

[1431joe]

I work in the media and I know for sure that many journalists, looking to advance their career, write articles about the escort business with their mind already made up that the escorts are all exploited victims and the clients are all monsters. They fancy themselves as fearless investigative journos with their concealed cameras and mics and cannot bear to see the real picture. Bang goes their big scoop if they did. Self centered negativity and lies. I consider my reasons for going to an escort to be motivated by healthy and safe reasons and am unaware of any harm done by me to anyone as a result. I would love to do a story about the real picture, but I can't reveal my identity or that of any escorts, but if any escorts are willing to go on the record (anonymously if necessary) and state how much money they owe, how much money they make, describe how they are exploited if at all and describe any dangers to health and safety they experience etc., and paint what I think is the real picture, a lot of people would be really surprised. A lot of the problem is caused by women's libbers and holy Catholic Irish conservative's need to perceive the situation as bad and wrong in order to prop up their arguments. Web sites like E-I have largely taken the business off the street and into a much more easily regulated and safer environment and has been a step forward. Re-introducing criminalization of escort or client would be a step back.