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Thread: Vote Yes for Jobs and Recovery ???

  1. #21
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    Default Well

    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    We need more O'Leary's.....running the Health Service, running the banks, running the planning process, running the whole f**king joint....and those union jockeys should get a one way ticket on Ryanair's inaugural flight to Cuba.
    they should let him buy out Aer Lingus because he seems to want it.They should have given him the second terminal in Dublin.He knows his stuff big time.

    Himself and Bill Cullen are the two best business ppl in this country imho.

    Westside.

  2. #22
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    Default Mick the 'Pimpmeister'

    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    We need more O'Leary's.....running the Health Service, running the banks, running the planning process, running the whole f**king joint....and those union jockeys should get a one way ticket on Ryanair's inaugural flight to Cuba.
    Get him to take over escorting in Ireland...I can see it now

    RyanRider !!!

    €15 a punt
    in a very small room....on a very small bed....
    1 hour only- if you dont arrive on time FUCK OFF- you ain't getting your money back
    you want a strap-on it's an extra €50!
    they'll provide a bus to the brothel but its 90 minutes away and will cost €20
    girls from every european destination and soon from north america too
    book online and you get her before the big fat smelly sweaty twit who doesn't have the brains to use priority
    if we advertise anal - you get anal- ditto gfe-fk etc.
    the mile high club is reality not fantasy
    screw a bird at 5:30 on a Tuesday morning for 1 cent
    any complaints just tell niner who will tell you to Fuck Off on Micko's behalf.

    Why go Aer Lingus when we already have cunni lingus.

  3. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ber View Post
    Well they are two sides to this story without the RYAN AIRs and other cheap carriers ordinary
    people would not be able to afford to travel ,its not too many years ago when it cost 400 or
    500 quid to fly to England, now we can travel half way round the world for that much. So
    people can bitch and complain but bottom line if they want cheap holidays in the sun and
    weekend breaks they need the cheap carriers.
    Also when Aer Lingus was a state company the culture of extravagance and waste put
    John O Donoghue to shame pilots and cabin staff staying in 5 star hotels on lay overs
    with large expense accounts concessions even for family travel ,pay rates for executives
    and ground staff excessive,totally overstaffed. Bottom line they are or were never anywhere
    near competitive,since they went private they had serious ground to make up and have failed
    to for simple reason their costs are still way too high. Aer Lingus staff pay rates and conditions
    are still way out of line with their competitors simple as. We are subsidising enough things
    in this country do u want prop up Aer Lingus as well? With the amount of carriers about and
    the competition about there will always be someone to fill the gaps at a competitive rate
    if Aer Lingus pull flights
    Half agree with you on this, I remember too well the 450 pound return flight to London and I am one who has benefited a lot from Ryanair being able to globe trot around Europe.

    And I am sure that there are places where Aer lingus can trim it's expenditure.

    But bottom line, if Aer Lingus went Ryanair would jack up its prices.

  4. #24
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    Default not any more

    Quote Originally Posted by lordjohn View Post
    Half agree with you on this, I remember too well the 450 pound return flight to London and I am one who has benefited a lot from Ryanair being able to globe trot around Europe.

    And I am sure that there are places where Aer lingus can trim it's expenditure.

    But bottom line, if Aer Lingus went Ryanair would jack up its prices.
    They cant really because there are plenty more Airlines out there that will move
    in if they see a good profit to be made,i think the days of competition are here
    to stay

  5. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    Aer Lingus is no different to any other part of the public sector incl. semi-states (current or former) in this country....totally inefficient, over staffed and over paid, with executives who's pay is not performance related and with boards that are appointed based on political patronage and cronyism. If the unions want to walk Aer Lingus staff into bankruptcy, let them....they are surplus to requirements and if they cant compete in the real world, the tax payer should not be asked to subsidize an inefficient operation and their fat cats executives with their perks.
    Carlos there has been a lot of public service bashing in the media over the past year.

    The media are conveniently using the terms and conditions of the top 5 to 10% of these organisations, aka the fat cats.
    However everyone in that organisation gets tarred with the same brush.
    This is a sustained campaign by vested interests to.
    Take the heat off the people who have caused this mess. and
    Pit public and private worker against each other.

    However for the other 90-95% of employees are going about their daily business as best they can.
    They are not getting bonuses, junkets etc.

    In fact there are a lot of public service employees after working a 35 hour week claiming Family Income Supplement. This is indicative that not all are on a fat pay cheque.

    The trade unions have fought hard since the early 1900's to have proper pay and conditions for workers in Ireland. They now remain the only line of defence for both Private and Public sector workers from having their pay and conditions being flushed down the toilet, during this crises.

    Just read any history book about conditions in Dublin at the turn off the last century.
    I remember hearing a lady on the radio who had a baby during the 1940's in Dublin.

    She gave birth one day to the child the next morning her friends from the factory called to her and told her, the employer was looking for her the day before. She had to be helped to the factory by her friends and she propped herself up between 2 machines for the duration of the day. An extreme story, but that's was it was like back then.

  6. #26
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lordjohn View Post
    Carlos there has been a lot of public service bashing in the media over the past year.

    The media are conveniently using the terms and conditions of the top 5 to 10% of these organisations, aka the fat cats.
    However everyone in that organisation gets tarred with the same brush.
    This is a sustained campaign by vested interests to.
    Take the heat off the people who have caused this mess. and
    Pit public and private worker against each other.

    However for the other 90-95% of employees are going about their daily business as best they can.
    They are not getting bonuses, junkets etc.

    In fact there are a lot of public service employees after working a 35 hour week claiming Family Income Supplement. This is indicative that not all are on a fat pay cheque.

    The trade unions have fought hard since the early 1900's to have proper pay and conditions for workers in Ireland. They now remain the only line of defence for both Private and Public sector workers from having their pay and conditions being flushed down the toilet, during this crises.

    Just read any history book about conditions in Dublin at the turn off the last century.
    I remember hearing a lady on the radio who had a baby during the 1940's in Dublin.

    She gave birth one day to the child the next morning her friends from the factory called to her and told her, the employer was looking for her the day before. She had to be helped to the factory by her friends and she propped herself up between 2 machines for the duration of the day. An extreme story, but that's was it was like back then.
    No, I'm not talking about the top 5% to 10% of public services employees.....I'm comparing those at the coal-face, teachers, nurses, gardai, university lecturers, hospital doctors, prison officers etc. with their counterparts in the EU......and I'm not comparing these salaries to the low cost economies of Eastern Europe either....but to the UK, France, Germany, Benelux, Denmark. In many of these countries, salaries are substantially lower and taxes higher. The Irish public sector is not large by OECD standards, but it is top heavy with over paid chiefs, bureaucracy, duplication, inefficiency and inflexibility. The Irish public sector is therefor a greater burden on the public purse (GDP terms) then the public sectors of our neighbours. While thousands in the private sector are losing their jobs or going on short time and/or pay cuts and companies are shutting shop, there will continue to be less income tax, corporation tax, vat, vrt, capital gains tax etc. to pay for the extravagance of the public sector......so the answer from this government seems to be to increase taxes and/or borrowing rather than deal with the real issues. Any business person, any housewife or househusband, or anybody who has to manage a budget knows full well that such a situation is not sustainable in the long run. But the political establishment and the unions have'nt the balls to be honest with the Irish public.

    The wealth of Ireland Inc. lies in what we produce and in the goods and services that we can supply on the open market and export abroad. The trade union movement is not creating or protecting any jobs in the private sector.......entrepreneurs, business leaders, a competitive environment, low transaction costs, a good skills base and competitive wage structures are what is required to achieve this. The unions have unfortunately become part of the problem instead of the solution. The likes of Jack O'Connor and David Begg are just defending their highly paid jobs in the same way as the government. The longer they put off the day of reconing, the worse the problems become......without Euro membership and the ECB, I think we would have hit that wall already.

    The public sector workers claim that they did not create this crises......that the bankers, developers and builders did with the collusion of the government and regulators, and that the government should go after them. They are of course correct to a large extent, but what is the point in going after institutions and organisations which are bankrupt in all but name.....bringing the house of cards that was built on sand down wont get us out of this one. We were led down the garden path by successive governments and sacrifice is required all round to pay for the cleanup operation.

    As an aside, if I were the head of government of the UK, France or Germany etc. and An Taoiseach came to me looking for money, I would show him what my teachers, nurses, police, doctors, public servants earn and what they pay in taxes and social contributions, and I would ask him to justify why I should bail out his teachers, nurses, police, doctors, public servants etc. who earn substantially more and pay less in taxes in many instances. Biffo should be sent packing and told to get his own house in order first.....and to use Ryanair instead of the government jet as an example of his sincerity.
    Last edited by carlos marvado; 11-10-09 at 14:50.

  7. #27
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    Default

    intellectual thread....

  8. #28

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    Carlos, I can't blame you for your view, because you and everyone else have been fed with
    anti public servant propaganda in the media for the last 12 months.
    Let me answer your points one by one.


    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    No, I'm not talking about the top 5% to 10% of public services
    employees.....I'm comparing those at the coal-face, teachers, nurses, gardai, university
    ecturers, hospital doctors, prison officers etc. with their counterparts in the
    EU......and I'm not comparing these salaries to the low cost economies of Eastern Europe
    either....but to the UK, France, Germany, Benelux, Denmark.
    Once this is once again a common theme in the media, comparing the public service of other
    European counteries with that of Ireland, what is missing from both your thread and the
    media is actual facts of how much the compareable public sector pay is in these countries
    and the cost of living in each of the respective countries.

    To my knowledge there has never been a proper survey, or report done comparing the two.
    If you have facts reveal your source rather than trotting out the populist view.

    However lets take the UK as our nearest example. Yes in the main the Irish Public servant
    is paid more however the cost of living in the UK is cheaper than Ireland, hell you can get
    an Escort in Mandys Superstars for £60 thats €66 in todys exchange rate. The cheapest here
    is €100.


    Everyone in the UK is entitled to a free GP not so in Ireland every time a public servant
    has to bring themselves or a child to the Doc you are looking at at least €50. Also in the

    UK no one has to spend more than €2.50 in a pharmacy, once again no so here.
    Cars, electronic goods, houses (outside London) are cheaper in the UK.

    Just to compare prices Ireland V UK, when I go to Argos in NI the prices are much cheaper.
    Just two items I got recently.

    Argos own brand microwave Dublin Price €39.99 Newry €20 thats 50% cheaper
    Playstation 3 Dublin Price €399 Newry €320 thats 20% Cheaper

    In today's Irish Times (Tue 13th Oct) there is a survey that although Tesco has gone on a
    price cutting drive south of the border that Tesco's in NI are still on average 18%
    cheaper than the Republic.

    From my own personal observations When I go to the Benelux Countries once again what I can
    see is goods are cheaper.

    A ride is €40-€50 Cheapest €80-€100 here thats 50%
    All bottles of spirits are €10 cheaper.
    Cigarettes are about €40-€50 for 200 that's about half price.
    Drink in the bars are cheaper etc etc.
    Thats Belgium/Holland similar countries in standard of living as you have stated.


    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    The Irish public sector is not large by OECD standards, but it
    is top heavy with over paid chiefs, bureaucracy, duplication, inefficiency and
    inflexibility. The Irish public sector is therefor a greater burden on the public purse
    (GDP terms) then the public sectors of our neighbours.
    You can back these statements up ?
    The Public Service is small compared with other countries.
    Yes there may be cases of inefficiency and inflexibility but there would be in any

    organisation employing over 300,000 people.
    You may be interested to know that over the last 12 years the Irish Public service has been
    involved in a modernization program that has it in a much better shape than the public
    service of 20 years ago.
    Also all pay increases under partnership over the last decade have been given in
    conjunction with the agreement of accepting changes in the Public Service.
    For example agreeing to the outsourcing of certain areas to private companies, without
    ensuing industrial action.


    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    The wealth of Ireland Inc. lies in what we produce and in the goods and services that we
    can supply on the open market and export abroad. The trade union movement is not creating
    or protecting any jobs in the private sector.......entrepreneurs, business leaders, a
    competitive environment, low transaction costs, a good skills base and competitive wage
    structures are what is required to achieve this. The unions have unfortunately become part
    of the problem instead of the solution.
    The wealth of Ireland Inc. lies in what we produce and in the goods and services that we
    can supply on the open market and export abroad. Agreed

    Get real the only reason 90% of us have a decent standard of living is down to the Trade
    Union Movement, who have fought for decent pay and standards for their members.
    If it was down to entrepreneurs, business leaders as you say they would happily have
    everyone working all hours at minimum wage if they could get away with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    why I should bail out his teachers, nurses, police, doctors, public servants etc. who earn
    substantially more and pay less in taxes in many instances.
    Public Servants pay the same amount of tax as everyone else in this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by carlos marvado View Post
    The public sector workers claim that they did not create this crises......that the bankers,
    developers and builders did with the collusion of the government and regulators, and that
    the government should go after them. They are of course correct to a large extent, but what
    is the point in going after institutions and organisations which are bankrupt in all but
    name.....bringing the house of cards that was built on sand down wont get us out of this
    one. We were led down the garden path by successive governments and sacrifice is required
    all round to pay for the cleanup operation.
    Some developers and institutions are bankrupt but many are not and still hold large amounts
    of money. Why should the be exempt.
    As for everyone has to sacrifice do you really believe the rich are feeling the same pain
    as the rest of us.
    One example Dermot Desmond aka the "Kaiser" bought Bank of Ireland shares when they were at
    rock bottom this year, he has since made a €23 million profit on his investment.
    Is that sharing the pain ?
    If so can I have a slice of it please.

  9. #29
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    Default simple questions ?

    how many people have lost their job in the last 18 months ?
    how many of those worked in the private sector ?
    how many worked in the public sector ?

  10. #30

    Default Simple Answer

    Quote Originally Posted by alechoran View Post
    how many people have lost their job in the last 18 months ?
    how many of those worked in the private sector ?
    how many worked in the public sector ?
    I see where you are coming from private sector possibly a lot, public sector there has been some but not many.

    But consider this, where would a public servant go if let go?
    Answer the Dole
    Who would end up paying ?
    Ans still you.

    Take a guy on the bottom Clerical Officer rate of €24585, by any standards not a lot of pay.
    Ok lets say he's married with a wife + 1 child. The wife who is not working.
    ATM he is possibly paying about €2000 tax. At least thats some contribution to the state, and it goes towards paying Joe private sector on the dole.
    That leaves 22,585 divided by 52
    Thats €434 per wk.

    Now lets get rid of this guy and his ilk from the public service.
    What he would get on the scratcher is

    Himself 204.30
    Wife 135.60
    Child 26.00
    Total 365.90

    Thats a saving of (€434 - 365.90) €68.10
    Hardly going to save the economy !

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