And Ruhama are off again...

[Patricia]

Rural hell of Ireland's sex slaves - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

But can we trust anything they say?

[carlos marvado]

Let's suppose that I'm an escort and the police raid the premises. The easiest way to get off the rap, would be to claim that I was trafficked into the country rather than doing the job voluntarily. The police might not even bring me to court, and even if they did, the presiding judge would probably go more leniently on me. Ruhama seem to put more store in the truthfulness of escorts than punters do.

On a more important note though, and with the introduction of the new laws, is the question of how the courts will interpret the term "trafficking". Will the term only be applied where woman/men (let's not discriminate here) are forced against their will to do this work here, or are induced to come here under false pretences and end up in prostitution against their will. Or, is it possible, that anybody who comes here to work in this business knowingly and voluntarily, on the basis of information supplied by or with the assistance of another person, will also be considered as having been trafficked. Many escorts seem to come here because friends who are already here, recommend to them how good the pickings are here.

Sorry to labour this point, but it is not just an academic matter of language interpretation. The new law sets down a five year term of imprisonment for anyone convicted of having sex with a trafficked person. So all punters should have an intimate interest in the definition of the word "trafficked".


P.S. If anyone has contact details for the Ukrainian pros.... er escort pictured with the article, I would be grateful for a PM.


Yours etc.

[Quarterpoundher]

On a more important note though, and with the introduction of the new laws, is the question of how the courts will interpret the term "trafficking". Will the term only be applied where woman/men (let's not discriminate here) are forced against their will to do this work here, or are induced to come here under false pretences and end up in prostitution against their will. Or, is it possible, that anybody who comes here to work in this business knowingly and voluntarily, on the basis of information supplied by or with the assistance of another person, will also be considered as having been trafficked. Many escorts seem to come here because friends who are already here, recommend to them how good the pickings are here.

I suppose it’s possible that the courts might interpret someone’s being here as the result of advisement or suggestion from a friend or colleague to come here, as having been ‘trafficked”, but that would only belittle and diminish what I assume the law was brought in for the first place, IE to deal with what any reasonable person would envisage trafficking to encompass, there will probably be instances of the third you mention, but surly it would be next to impossible to prove or disprove that such a conversation ever took place

[carlos marvado]

I am sure that many people will remember the pro-life amendments to the Irish constitution in the latter part of the last century. Governments produced wording, which they told the people meant a certain thing, the people voted accordingly, the the judiciary gaves it's interpretation when test cases made their way to the courts. I would'nt rule out any possibility when judges get their hands on the English language - they'll pull it apart with a fine tooth comb, and you find that what you thought something meant, was'nt really the case.

The other point is, that any escort, in order to avoid being prosecuted, can make the claim that she was trafficked or forced into this work against her will. If she is believed, this could be used as evidence for the prosecution in a criminal case against anybody found to have had sex with her. The escort uses this law to try and save her own skin, thereby dropping the punter deep in the merde.

[Quarterpoundher]

I am sure that many people will remember the pro-life amendments to the Irish constitution in the latter part of the last century. Governments produced wording, which they told the people meant a certain thing, the people voted accordingly, the the judiciary gaves it's interpretation when test cases made their way to the courts. I would'nt rule out any possibility when judges get their hands on the English language - they'll pull it apart with a fine tooth comb, and you find that what you thought something meant, was'nt really the case.

The other point is, that any escort, in order to avoid being prosecuted, can make the claim that she was trafficked or forced into this work against her will. If she is believed, this could be used as evidence for the prosecution in a criminal case against anybody found to have had sex with her. The escort uses this law to try and save her own skin, thereby dropping the punter deep in the merde.

I see what you’re saying all right Carlos, It’s a real possibility. I’m showing my naivete here and please don’t think I’m second guessing you, you are very knowledgeable about pretty much anything, its just I was surmising that such a case would have only have gotten to court by way of a raid or something, and if the Escort she/he was found to be operating alone and without the obvious entanglements of being trafficked (which I’m again surmising would be the traffickers or some other controlling influence around) it would be very difficult for them then to claim trafficking as a defense, but I agree its a possibility, Courts just love to ruminate on what interpretation to place on laws, and there may well be the odd ‘X case” shall we say in this arena, but I’d say it would be very rare, and unfortunately anyone connected (Escort or Client) would be embroiled in a huge media story, and there lives would or could be ruined.

If it where to become commonplace, (which I doubt) and many jail sentences were imposed, then this Industry and paradoxically, Women would suffer (no idea to what extent) but I feel the net result might be only the hard core element, who may be impervious to thought or implications would be left as Punters, and the Criminal element have free reign, as the vast majority of people who enjoy this arena , and are perfectly law abiding and decent would find it an unacceptable risk, that would be to the detriment of Women who are in this arena voluntarily as their potential pool of clientele would then in the main be reduced to an unsavory type, and they themselves would be forced to leave also, and the whole thing would just spiral downwards.

But I will say that a five year sentence might concentrate the minds on those who never had or would have given thought to the Issue or possibility of the person their with having been trafficked, that could only be a good thing, but if the law then turn’s around and goes after people whose involvement was totally consensual, that would be just a lousy stunt to pull, and would denigrate and subvert the primary goal of the law, but I can see it happening on occasion, very well spotted Carlos.

[carlos marvado]

but if the law then turn’s around and goes after people whose involvement was totally consensual, that would be just a lousy stunt to pull, and would denigrate and subvert the primary goal of the law, but I can see it happening on occasion, very well spotted Carlos.

If pressure is put on the Gardai to clean up an area and get convictions by politicians, the media and the holier-than-thou concerned citizens groups, certain short cuts might end up being taken.....need I say any more than mention the words WEST MIDLANDS SERIOUS CRIME SQUAD.

Pushing these things further underground than they already are, will as you say QPH, just leave the field to the most unscrupulous and hardened elements out there. It will disimprove working conditions and make the situation even more dangerous for escorts. The sane remedy in legalisation and regulation and then go after the trafficking element..... but unfortunately our national parliament is inhabited by 166 eunuchs.

It's a bit like, the abortion issue. We d'ont have a problem with that here because we export it. Well if punters decide to export themselves and their money when they feel the urge, it will be the economies of Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic etc that will benefit from it. Though local escorts may repatriate much of their money back to their home countries (as most are non-Irish), at least they pay rent/hotel costs, food and other items in this country. But heh, try to make an economic arguement to the "Soldiers of Destiny" and you might as well be engaging in watersports against a gale force wind.

Emigration might'nt be such a bad thing after all.

[Quarterpoundher]

If pressure is put on the Gardai to clean up an area and get convictions by politicians, the media and the holier-than-thou concerned citizens groups, certain short cuts might end up being taken.....need I say any more than mention the words WEST MIDLANDS SERIOUS CRIME SQUAD.

Pushing these things further underground than they already are, will as you say QPH, just leave the field to the most unscrupulous and hardened elements out there. It will disimprove working conditions and make the situation even more dangerous for escorts. The sane remedy in legalisation and regulation and then go after the trafficking element..... but unfortunately our national parliament is inhabited by 166 eunuchs.

It's a bit like, the abortion issue. We d'ont have a problem with that here because we export it. Well if punters decide to export themselves and their money when they feel the urge, it will be the economies of Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic etc that will benefit from it. Though local escorts may repatriate much of their money back to their home countries (as most are non-Irish), at least they pay rent/hotel costs, food and other items in this country. But heh, try to make an economic arguement to the "Soldiers of Destiny" and you might as well be engaging in watersports against a gale force wind.

Emigration might'nt be such a bad thing after all.

I concur completely and utterly with that Carlos, I forgot to state in previous post that there is a very real possibility that the “establishment’ might subvert this law and try something along the lines of lumping people who are engaged in a consensual arrangement in with trafficking. (There has to be a clear line drawn in law between to two.) A Trojan horse of sorts, go after everyone while under the guise of protecting the vulnerable. That’s been done down through history, for many different reasons, but all to the same end, control.


I agree completely that the only way to truly beat traffickers is to normalize this industry in some way, shape, or form, (I know that won’t happen unless forced by some future EU directive or something) you don’t see moonshine and liquor being smuggled around the US (Re: prohibition) or anywhere that it is legal, for the simple reason there is no need to. If someone doesn’t want to drink, then don’t, but don’t impose your perceived morals on everyone else, those that do want a tipple contribute to the exchequer, the bootleggers are frozen out, both party’s get what they want, and everyone’s happy, it’s not rocket science, the exact same applies to this arena as well.

The same criteria and mindset should apply to approaching this issue in a mature and socially responsible way by our elected representatives, it won’t happen because anyone in the Dail that even whispered that would be crucified by both their party and the Mother Magdalene brigade outside their Church’s on Sunday and be deemed unelectable and even untouchable...

Some of the worst calamity’s of history were created by people “claming” to be doing either the lords work or for the greater good

This law in and of itself is a good thing, but your right that it could very easily be twisted to serve other agenda’s.

With ref. to the Irish predilection for sweeping everything under the carpet with respect to Women being forced to go to the UK and elsewhere for an abortion. That is one thing I can’t stand about Ireland, the attitude is,

“run along now and do what you need to do in England, but don’t be bothering us with it, were grand as we are, and when you get back, say nothing and we’ll see you at mass like nothing ever happened”

We think we are this modern forward looking country, but we will always be a backward, overly religiously controlled troglodyte of a State until we grasp the regrettable but none the less required need for facilities to be available here. What’s the difference between an abortion taking place in another Country and it taking place here. Do the zealots truly believe that God will think more of us then he will for the English, or anyone else ?...

[carlos marvado]

Some of the worst calamity’s of history were created by people “claming” to be doing either the lords work or for the greater good

Verily I say unto you, all my brothers and sisters, in the scriptures (I d'ont have chapter and verse to hand) our Lord Jesus Christ exhorts us all to "love thy neighbour as thyself" and elsewhere, "give half of all you own away to the poor".

Punters go out in all sorts of inclement weather and often at great expense and great distances to share this message with unfortunate women, sharing our love with these, our sisters and neighbours, irrespective of their age, race, creed or vital statistics and also sharing some of our wealth to alleviate their suffering.

Brother QPH, I honestly believe, that you have been called from on high to get off your fence beside the Blackwater and joined the other brothers in our great missionary work. Armchair preaching is all good and well, but the true missionary position must be assumed out in the field, where we all toil day and night to give witness to the true meaning of the Gospels.

I would just like to quote a Portuguese phrase which the Portuguese and Brazilians use when bidding good-bye to one another: "Fica com Deus" translated as "Stay with God" in English. So let us all stay with God and f**k the Devil.

P.S. I think it's time I joined the queue outside Fr. Cleary's confessional. Though, in all honesty, I think he may have even more to confess than I do.

[lordjohn]

My opinion is that Ruhama has its own axe to grind here.

If you look at it's website only 2 of the board members are male the rest are female comprising mainly of nuns.

I have always got the impression that this organisation are in the main, man haters who think that in any incident of a guy going to a prositute that it is the man who is the one exploiting the girl on every occasion.

Now we all know what the nuns and the priests did to fuck up Irish society from the 30s to the 70s !!!

I don't condone trafficking I think it is in Ruhamas self interest for funding and publicity not to mention that what is going on it sinful to exgerate the situation.

In response to the legal debate surely you would have to had had sex with a traffiked person knowingly to be procecuted ?? This would be difficult if not impossible to prove.

[Quarterpoundher]

[QUOTE=carlos marvado;31676]

Brother QPH, I honestly believe, that you have been called from on high to get off your fence beside the Blackwater and joined the other brothers in our great missionary work. Armchair preaching is all good and well, but the true missionary position must be assumed out in the field, where we all toil day and night to give witness to the true meaning of the Gospels.[QUOTE]


May the lord strengthen thy rod to beat thine heathens of good intentions back to their places of fall profits and false worship, and may the hounds of hell that is thine insuing economic downtown nare bark at thy door, but pass swiftly on, leaving all true soldiers of God with brimming wallets to wage this noble battle of the ages. But alas this weak and worrisome heathen has nare the courage nor shining convictions of you brother, nor the ware with all to fund such a heaven sent existence…

Giveth a man a fish and he will eat for a day,
Giveth a man the means to pay for an Escort, and he will not care if he eats every again…