View Full Version : Prostitution Consultaion Discussions on E-I
I'm posting about this as some people have asked.
E-I's plan re Consultation discussions on E-I is as follows:
To create a new public forum on this board with sub-forums, specifically to discuss this consultation and all the questions in it, in an organised way. This will be available on Monday or Tuesday.
There are quite a number of people registered on these boards who are interested in taking part in this Consultation and probably none of us are experts on each question in it, but if we draw our knowledge together, by getting different feedback and information posted about each question from numerous sources, this may enable us all to better come up with our own submissions.
I considered whether E-I was an appropriate place for these things to be discussed. You could say it would be better if some independent group set up such a forum away from this website. But I don't see anyone doing that. Also although anyone who wanted to join the discussions but isn't registered here could register here and join in, some people may not wish to join an adult website. However I think it is most important escorts contribute here and the fact of the matter is many escorts visit these forums, and so it is a good place in that respect.
I considered whether it should be a private forum rather than a public forum. You could say it is not good to let the enemy see what you are doing! But if you make it private, less people get involved, and also I don't think we really have anything to hide here, maybe it is actually even better we do this in the open. We are all adults trying to come up with a response to a consultation. We are not a group of people with one agenda, who need to promote one PR image to the world etc. We don't need to agree on everything with each other, or hide what we are thinking.
Lastly, anonymous posting (meaning you can post anonymously) would be available to escorts only in these Consultation forums. This would be to enable escorts to share their opinions anonymously if they wish. This facility would be provided only for escorts because of the unique position they are in here. You have to put yourself in an escort's place, imagine you are here for business, you have an escort identity. Sometimes it is not easy for escorts to speak freely here because of their identity as an escort, it can be useful for escorts to be able to provide some feedback but do so anonymously, so they can speak freely without it possibly infringing their privacy or impacting on their business.
As a general concept this would be a serious forum of hard work. The petty spats that go on here between users sometimes would not be welcome in this forum, any anonymous posts made attacking another user would be immediately deleted as that is not what anonymous posting is for. I don't wish to say we could never have a bit of fun or a joke in this forum, but it wouldn't be for "silly fun" type posts. This is a serious consultation and many of us want to make a serious response to it, because it is important.
We are having a staff meeting to discuss this on Monday and it was my intention to announce this on Monday or Tuesday after this, but I might as well tell you all now, so you can give any feedback you want to etc.
Pat x
LaBelleThatcher
24-06-12, 19:26
Brilliant :)
(Shit, you do realise we are making history here?)
the traveller
24-06-12, 21:50
Thanks Pat! Way to go lady!
Dear Pat, I am a bit thick and even after reading your intro above, I am not quite sure what is supposed to go into this specific thread. So if this next post is out of place please send it to of of the other related threads.
My comments relate to the recently released discussion document on future direction of prostitution legislation (and not on our specific response, yet).
I am on page 22 (only 37 pages to go!!!) and am very impressed already! For those not in the know (like me) - this document is not proposing legislation change. It merely outlines where there is a review of exisiting laws governing the sex industry and sex work. It goes through the history of such legislation in Ireland and the current law as it stands (which has been hugely educational for me). It also descibes the law in various countries Sweden, U.K., Australia, Holland, N.Z. etc. amd talks about the various opinions on these systems in a non judgemental fashion.
There are hugely encouraging staements in this document which indicate that the powers that be appear to be open minded and not overly biased by any one groups dogma.
Here are few excerpts: (Form pages 4 & 5)
Firstly despite public disapproval of prostitution and substantial legal provisions criminalising prostitution related activities, individuals continue to buy and sell sex and it is an activity that has existed over the millenia. On the assumption that individuals continue to engage in prostitution consideration needs to be given to how legislation might be framed to deal with the complex issues surrounding prostitution, to protect prostitutes from exploitation and the need to have effective laws to reduce, deter and prosecute criminal acitivites.
Secondly, the law does not criminalize the exchange of sex for moeny but it does criminalize most other prostitution-related activities. The effect of this law is that there are few ways to sell sex in Ireland without risking criminal punishment.......this makes it illegal for a prostitute to pay soemone to protect her or him, or to assist in any aspect of her or his work....
Halleluyah I say!! I'm off to read it through to the end.
Here are a couple other great excerpts from the article:
(page 5 - Difficulties in analysing the issue of Prostitution)
Moreover, discussion of adult prostitution tends to incorporate other issues, including human trafficking, sex tourism, and child prostitution. While important, none of these issues are directly relevant to assesing the issues of voluntary commercial sex.
Amen!!! An acceptance that there is such a thing as "voluntary commercial sex"
(Page 6 )
In devising policy responses.......it is also crucial to clearly distinguish between human trafficking for sexual exploitation on the one hand, and prostitution on the other. While the two can sometimes overlap, human traffciking and prostitution are different phenomena requring distinct policy responses....
Oh thank you, thank you, thank you.... finally an acknowldgement of what we all know.
Half Man and Half Dildo
28-06-12, 21:19
Thank's Morpheus, that's great news ! ! ! We need to have the widest possible audience for this.
When the previous report was published Ruhama voiced their disapproval of it because it didn't follow their agenda to the letter, God only knows what they make of this. Their whole campaign has been to discredit the notion of consent as much as possible.
LaBelleThatcher
28-06-12, 22:00
It is the most promising thing ever...we could just get real human lives out of this.
...and they guy I spoke to at the ministry was just so nice and friendly it was unreal...I mean NO WAY would you feel demeaned or disrespected...
...even thought the promised details for submission are still not up...but that is down to IT.
This is a brief summary of what’s going on so far for people like me who haven’t got their heads around it. Apologies to those who are two steps ahead.
The government/dept of justice is reviewing the laws governing prostitution.
There will be a period of open discussion on the topic. It is unclear when the deadline for completion of the discussion will be?
The government has started the ball rolling by producing a document titled “Discussion document on future direction of prostitution legislation”. It is an excellent unbiased, well researched document – which covers possibly every angle of any debate on the topic. It doesn’t offer an opinion or decision.
Submissions from interested parties have been welcomed, but it is unclear to me to whom or how these submissions should be made. One thing is clear and that is that there will be an open conference at some date in the future for a public debate on the subject.
There is a Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality and Defence, chaired by Mr. David Stanton T.D. The committee will publish its report and recommendations by the 30th November 2012 and that report will be furnished to the Minister for Justice together with any submissions received.
Following this the minister will consider all the above before framing any new legislative proposals and submitting it to the government for consideration.
Incidentally I got all this from the aforementioned document. Did I already mention how good it is??? Forgive me for my enthusiasm but I expected the document to be further anti-escorting propaganda, which it most definitely is not!! It is written by people who have actually researched the issues and posed the relevant questions.
I hope to make further short posts regarding specific issues highlighted in the document.
Half Man and Half Dildo
02-07-12, 22:21
Thanks, Morpheus.
And thank God too that we have Alan Shatter in the dept of Justice rather than someone like Phil Hogan, can you imagine the mess he'd make of it.
It’s no secret that this has been driven by the anti-escorting lobby. But there are a number of valid positive reasons given in the consultation document for the review . Current legislation on prostitution is old (1993) and things have changed dramatically in the industry – with the business moving in doors and the advent of internet and mobile phone technology.
The document admits that the key objective of the 1993 legislation was to protect society from the nuisance and public order problems associated with prostitution!!:eek:.
The following two paragraphs in the reason for review (on page 4) are promising:
This paper does not take a position on what changes, if any, should be made to the criminal law. The idea is to assist public reflection on the issues and to gather views on what the approach of the criminal law should be in order to reduce, deter, detect and prosecute criminal activity and protect prostitutes from exploitation, with due regard to the principles of human rights.
While the above is what exactly what our opponents will claim they are seeking, there is a real chance for escorts to ask for their basic human rights! Namely the right to earn a living.
First, despite public disapproval of prostitution and substantial legal provisions criminalising prostitution related activities, individuals continue to sell and buy sex and it is an activity that has existed over the millennia. On the assumption that individuals will continue to engage in prostitution consideration needs to be given to how legislation might be framed to deal with the complex issues surrounding prostitution, to protect prostitutes from exploitation and the need to have effective laws to reduce, deter, detect and prosecute criminal activities.
The above is encouraging given that it accepts that sex work has existed forever and will be unlikely to stop. In contrast the TORL campaign openly admits that they want to end sex work in Ireland for good!
It also talks about protecting sex workers from exploitation, again something our ladies can comment on how they feel this will best be served.
Second, the law does not criminalise the exchange of sex for money but it does
criminalise most prostitution-related activities. The effect of this law is that there are few ways to sell sex in Ireland without risking criminal punishment
This is an excellent admission that the current laws are prejudicial to escorts!!:angryfire: We always talk about escorting being legal in Ireland! Well it isn’t really – and makes life a minefield for any escort trying to negotiate the legal maze.
Here’s a news flash! The child prostitution and sex trafficking have nothing to do with the proposed review of prostitution legislation!!!!!!
Both the issues of child prostitution and sex trafficking come under separate robust and strict legislation subject to international agreements that Ireland has signed up to!!
Yet Ruhama and The immigration council have used these two issues constantly to arouse an emotive response to change legislation that has nothing to do with either!! The immigrant councils’ recent radio ad is a classic example of this subterfuge!!
Let me be clear on my views on the above two issues. Any case of prostitution of a minor in Ireland is one too many. There were 30 alleged cases over the last three years. I am unclear as to how many were proven and resulted in convictions.
Likewise there should be zero tolerance for human trafficking for forced sex work. There were some 100 or so alleged cases of trafficking for the purposes of forced prostitution over the same time period. However, no evidence of trafficking was uncovered in any of these cases.
The issue related to the above is one of enforcement and implementation of the existing legislation, by the gardai and the law courts. It isn’t one of legislation. And as I‘ve pointed out, neither legislation is up for discussion in this debate!!
Combating child prostitution and human trafficking for sex work would best be served by allowing the gardai to deal with these serious issues rather than chasing escorts and their clients who engage in sexual activities by mutual financial consent.
Thankfully the consultation document admits the confusion of these issues and the need to separate them:
Taken from page 5:
Moreover, discussion of adult prostitution tends to incorporate other issues, including human trafficking, sex tourism, and child prostitution. While important, none of these issues are directly relevant to assessing the issue of voluntary commercial sex.
Half Man and Half Dildo
02-07-12, 23:39
In contrast the TORL campaign openly admits that they want to end sex work in Ireland for good!
In a radio interview she gave to Pat Kenny last year, Geraldine Rowley Of Ruhama admitted to him that they could not hope to stop all prostitution in Ireland.
More recently Sarah Benson has spoken of the need for the ISP's and the phone companies to work with them to achieve their goals. What she fails to realise is the utter futility of such actions because - "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_%28activist%29) If the MPAA and the RIAA with all their legal and finacial might cannot land a killing blow to the pirate bay what hope does TORL have of shutting down or preventing Irish users access to the thousands of escorting sites out there?
Right, now that we all dressed up, where do we go from here?
I am a punter. To the anti-escorting lobby that equates to sexual offender and rapist. And truth be told the general public will probably view me as a pervert, sado or degenerate at best. So realistically I am not going to have a credible voice in this debate as punter.
On a personal note I’ve never pretended to more than I am - a coward who values his own skin far more than sex!. I will not be speaking up at the said conference or having any other public debate on the matter. Truth be told, if the worst case scenario came and the Swedish model came in – I would either quit or continue to see escorts in the new underground world it will create.
And I suspect this will be the case for most punters (until you get arrested that is!!) Sadly the ones who have most to lose from any negative legislation change will be escorts themselves.
However, the most powerful voices to counter Ruhama and co will be from escorts themselves. Clearly no lady can be expected to risk her identity at any public debate or interview. But it would be a powerful lobby if the girls could form themselves a group and have a spokesperson or lawyer to convey their message.
Forgive if this has come across as patronizing as I’m sure you girls are way ahead in this matter. However, it just struck me reading the consultation document that the people behind the document are crying out for escorts to voice their opinions on prostitution legislation.
(Taken from page 5)
Although hundreds of individuals are involved in prostitution in Ireland, it is difficult to obtain their opinions on the effects of the criminal law on their daily lives and quality of life. (It is much easier to obtain accounts of the experiences of residentswho are exposed to the harmful aspects of street prostitution.) But first hand information about their experiences, the challenges they face and the solutions they propose to reduce exploitation, violence in prostitution, or trafficking would also be valuable. They are in the position that selling sex is not a crime but they have to bear the taint of criminality, stigma and social opprobrium.
An organisation such as SWAI springs to mind. However, their silence has been deafening throughout this debate, and that does concern me whether they are the right vehicle to be the voice of escorts.
As for the content of what arguments you put forward – look no further than the consultation document itself. Why reinvent the wheel? The document does put forward the views of both pro and anti escorting lobbies but all you need to do is back the positive arguments as you see important to your work and well being.
As for the aims of the pro-escorting lobby, may I suggest a two fold approach. I know it may seem obvious but it helps focus mind on realistic achievable goals.
Continued from previous post:
As for the aims of the pro-escorting lobby, may I suggest a two fold approach. I know it may seem obvious but it helps focus mind on realistic achievable goals.
1) Resist and repel any further criminalisation of prostitution including the Swedish model.
2) Decide as an escorting group what specific ground you want to gain- eg.
· Redefining the term brothel - not to include a place that you actually live in and to allow at least two girls to live together. E-I tried this a few years ago but failed. It is well worth a shot now that the legislation is up for review.
· Decriminalizing certain escorting related activites eg. Advertising, employing others for security or secretarial work etc. To allow landlords to rent to escorts (not necessarily knowingly) without fear of prosecution for profiting from prostitution.
LaBelleThatcher
03-07-12, 01:21
Don't bother with SWAI...
Just another NGO game. They are a totally phoney counterpart to Ruhama who are hot in pursuit of Ruhama's funding.
No current ore former sex workers involved at any executive of consultative level and they would cheerfully move heaven and earth to avoid any of us being involved (typical NGO pattern). I know, I tried...
I will be at the consultation, and I am hoping against hope that there will be some way one or two others will make it.
Perhaps E-I could send a solicitor or someone to speak for them?
The Department of Justice are willing to listen to any suggestions that will make it possible for sex workers and clients to contribute, but, so far, it's a logistics nightmare.
It's great that E-I has embraced the consultation process, and allowed members to provide their views. I think it's something that should be taken advantage of by the members and especially the escorts, as after all they are the people who have the full picture.
S.11 of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act, 1993 or the offence of "brothel keeping" needs to be amended to tighten up the provision and stop bringing independent escorts into the net. Per the case of Stevens v Christy in the UK, it was held that the question of what constitutes a brothel is a question of fact and degree (the Courts will decide in every case). Rather than proceed with this as persuasive precedent, I feel there should be a statutory definition of a "brothel" which leaves no doubt that individual escorts cannot be subject to criminal charge.
S.23 of the Public Order Act, 1994 which creates an offence of advertising a brothel, or advertising the services of a prostitute illegal should at least be amended to deal with the evolution of technology. I see no more harm to society or the common good coming from online advertising of escorts than from some legitimate product advertising on television.
The organisation and living on earnings offences created by s. 9 and s. 10 of the 1993 Act are more complicated, and need to be analyzed carefully in order to differentiate independents from organised prostitution.
LaBelleThatcher
04-07-12, 18:31
S.23 of the Public Order Act, 1994 which creates an offence of advertising a brothel, or advertising the services of a prostitute illegal should at least be amended to deal with the evolution of technology. I see no more harm to society or the common good coming from online advertising of escorts than from some legitimate product advertising on television.
Just a quick thought that suddenly seems glaringly obvious but surly the only difference legalising advertising will make will be that advertising can be regulated and taxed?
Just a quick thought that suddenly seems glaringly obvious but surly the only difference legalising advertising will make will be that advertising can be regulated and taxed?
Or a website can be hosted and updated in Ireland without those involved attracting criminal sanction. I'd imagine that as it would then be a legal activity, the Revenue Commissioners will want their cut, considering they get first cut from liquidations and a dead person's estate, they don't miss much.
Jack in the Box
04-07-12, 19:39
As you were saying Morpheus this consultation is a glass half full document and is a welcome change from the biased diatribes from too many senators and journalists for e.g.
We need to go out of our way to get some sort of representation/group together. Maybe one idea to try to make ourselves known would be to text sex workers advertising on this site (and many others) with a well worded request for them to become involved. They might not know that we are here. After doing a quick search on this site alone there are many escorts on E-I over 35-40 years who would be mature and experienced enough to have great potential in a debate.
There is no point in mulling over it but TOTBL had plenty of momentum up to as recently as the third quarter of 2011. It slowed very much in 2012. They had website updates and a Google ad that were successful. I was in the Friends of TOTBL’s forum sometimes and 2 or 3 people seemed to be running it. Also I have contacted STRASS which fights the equivalent of the Ruhama crowd in France and has large membership. We could do worse than try to replicate this progress and also meet with those in the conference and politicians etc which never happened with TOTBL.
The stakes are high enough that we should consider paying others a certain sum to get involved if only to get the ball rolling. Money is that scarce these days that there should be more takers. Paypal or physically putting money in a letter box would be ways of implementing this.
Confidentiality is a concern as well on one hand. On the other hand apart from someone who might be worried about frail for elderly religious parents for e.g. it really is not most of the people you interact with in daily life’s business.
We should also consider getting a spokesperson. We don’t necessarily have to define ourselves as sex workers, ex sex workers or clients for example and could just identify ourselves as concerned about sex work. If other things don’t work as desired E-I should get a solicitor to represent it as you said LaBelle regardless.
[QUOTE=Jack in the Box;822685]As you were saying Morpheus this consultation is a glass half full document and is a welcome change from the biased diatribes from too many senators and journalists for e.g.
We need to go out of our way to get some sort of representation/group together. Maybe one idea to try to make ourselves known would be to text sex workers advertising on this site (and many others) with a well worded request for them to become involved. They might not know that we are here. After doing a quick search on this site alone there are many escorts on E-I over 35-40 years who would be mature and experienced enough to have great potential in a debate.
There is no point in mulling over it but TOTBL had plenty of momentum up to as recently as the third quarter of 2011. It slowed very much in 2012. They had website updates and a Google ad that were successful. I was in the Friends of TOTBL’s forum sometimes and 2 or 3 people seemed to be running it. Also I have contacted STRASS which fights the equivalent of the Ruhama crowd in France and has large membership. We could do worse than try to replicate this progress and also meet with those in the conference and politicians etc which never happened with TOTBL.
The stakes are high enough that we should consider paying others a certain sum to get involved if only to get the ball rolling. Money is that scarce these days that there should be more takers. Paypal or physically putting money in a letter box would be ways of implementing this.
Confidentiality is a concern as well on one hand. On the other hand apart from someone who might be worried about frail for elderly religious parents for e.g. it really is not most of the people you interact with in daily life’s business.
We should also consider getting a spokesperson. We don’t necessarily have to define ourselves as sex workers, ex sex workers or clients for example and could just identify ourselves as concerned about sex work. If other things don’t work as desired E-I should get a solicitor to represent it as you said LaBelle regardless.[/QUOTE
The reality for majority involved in providing service or availing of services offered is now so anti choice it is unbelievable. To me the loss of the right to choose now is retrograde step in our development of a mature society.
I am of the opinion that the mind set that informs the prevailing situation is informed by fear and ignorance.
[
The reality for majority involved in providing service or availing of services offered is now so anti choice it is unbelievable. To me the loss of the right to choose now is retrograde step in our development of a mature society.
I am of the opinion that the mind set that informs the prevailing situation is informed by fear and ignorance.
Exactly Simon! Fear and ignorance is right! It's the exact reason that the TORL campaign have got so many organisations and unions to give them their suppport and stamp of approval!
Almost everytime these anti-escorting groups speak - they start by mentioning child prostitution and trafficking!!
It came as a shock to me to learn that the current legislation on prostitution has nothing to do with either of the above issues which have their own legislation in place. I'm sure that the anti-escorting lobbyists know this full well, but prey on the general publics fear and ignorance of the legislation being reviewed.
LaBelleThatcher
06-07-12, 09:54
You know Morpheus, I really do not think that most of the people (apart from religious based and affiliated organisations) who have joined really understand what they are joining.
For one thing, Ruhama STILL insist on claiming to speak with some kind of mandate from sex workers (albeit their own version of sex workers as intellectually challenged perpetual 5 year olds) which is an outright falsehood.
We know that, but most people don't. Remember, for most people, sex work is something they make up to sell tabloids, and when Ruhama hustle them that is their first real contact with the fact that it is real, and involves real people. Ruhama don't approach them honestly, and ask them to help hammer sex workers into submission to their agenda so that their funding streams are not cut ff (as they should have been for years in this climate EVEN if they could behave themselves, and they cannot). Oh no, Ruhama have never been that honest. They approach them and ask if they would like to "help" sex workers.
THEN the twisted logic kicks in at slick high speed that constantly glosses over the financial reality that if a woman sells sex because she has to due to financial imperatives she will be up sh*t creek without a paddle when they destroy the demand and, on account of the economic downturn, if a woman sells sex because she wants to she may not be in a much better position.
They also gloss over the reality that the women want nothing to do with them and their twisted logic, and such little they have to offer that passes for real help is only offered, however, technically "non-judgementally" in terms of a bizarre alternative reality, of their own making, that contradicts the real life experience of sex workers and is impossible to comply with without sustaining serious mental and emotional damage.
So people, and organisations sign up to "Turn Off the Red Light" under the genuine impression that Ruhama are asking them to do so on behalf of the ladies here.
All else aside, that is outright fraud that needs proving, stopping and preventing in future.