Consultation Document Due for Release from DOJ on Thiursday

[LaBelleThatcher]

With nothing else to crow about, Ruhama have broken their uncanny silence to tweet about this.

This is where everybody's ass genuinely *MUST* get into gear, because now it is up to you.

There are no excuses, everybody here is articulate and of above average intelligence...yeah are not people who need an advocate to be able to express yourselves.

If EVERYBODY who reads this board, takes a few hours our to write a concise and professional submission WE WILL WIN THIS.

Pretend you are a whole NGO, getting 2 million a year to take your mates on the razz...OOPS...I mean "advocate for the sex industry".

Use some kind of unique identifier if you can...literally if you even just buy a sim then bin it after using it to ID yourself.

I would also suggest that some of us post our submissions here, just so people know how many there are...I reckon it wouldn't take a whole lot of sucking up for Pat to come up with a board JUST for publishing our submissions on :)

Nobody has ever done this before, but if we do it right we will WIN THIS.

I was out mowing the lawn, thinking. The glaringly obvious truth that we are all missing is that these abolitionist are actually mentally ill...

It does happen...remember the inquisition, or the Salem Witch Trials concurrent with Matthew Hopkins, the UK Witchfinder general? Fascism?

Too many mentally ill people gathered together and working for a common cause, and it is so unlikely that nobody real notices until it is far too late.

Ruhama's and by extension, Turn Off the Red Light's power depends on presenting themselves as the sole, exclusive, conduit for the voices of sex workers, so the only way to bring them down is to give that the lie by speaking for ourselves.

For your own sakes, I beg you to do this.

[Half Man and Half Dildo]

Thanks, Eileen.

How long will the consultation stage last for? And in what form will it be in, this is open to everyone in Ireland, am I correct?

Now is the time to be listening to Pat Kenny's morning radio show as he will undoubtedly be covering this. I suggest people (especially the escorts) store his contact details on their phones and have a well thought out, concise text\email ready to send.

Here is his contact details:

Email: todaypk@rte.ie

Text Us: Text the word TODAY followed by the comment to 51551
N.I. and Britain: Text the word STUDIO followed by the comment to 80889

On-air Phone: 1850 715 900
GB & N.I.: 0845 7857777
Fax: 01 208 2634

[Lucy Chambers]

Sorry, I have read this twice now and you need to be clearer on precisely what you want people to do :) Is it send an email, text, call, what? Does it need to go to TD's, press, where? If so it this link? http://www.contact.ie/contact

I think if people have a template email or text to work from and a clear idea of who it needs to go to it will help with numbers.

[LaBelleThatcher]

The consultation is (originally) intended to go on through the summer culminating in an open conference in the Autumn...actually, one of the thing you should be including in your submission is the inequality of the position that will impose upon the people most directly affected, sex workers and their clients, and the ONLY people who really know anything about the sex industry (as opposed to making it up to suit themselves and attract funding - if only sex work was so easy and sex workers also managed to mislay their consciences at the drop of a hat).

You get a LOT further with politicians by suggesting solutions than by raising problems, and you get further still by suggesting solutions that can be sold to the electorate.

Can anyone think of a way that we can be fully included in any conference that will not be equivalent to the last act of the 47 Ronin in our personal lives? If so, TELL the minister, let's make it happen. It can be as easy as thinking of a solution when it comes to inclusion.

[LaBelleThatcher]

Sorry, I have read this twice now and you need to be clearer on precisely what you want people to do :) Is it send an email, text, call, what? Does it need to go to TD's, press, where? If so it this link? http://www.contact.ie/contact

I think if people have a template email or text to work from and a clear idea of who it needs to go to it will help with numbers.

We won't know the exact details until thursday Lucy...and it is just best to see what their guidelines are and try to stay within them. Personally I find guidelines can be helpful in getting my thoughts nailed down too, but not everyone is the same..

When I have made submissions before I have made them out in the form of a report and then posted them in...for some reason that still seems to have more impact than email (a lot of TDs still read their email every Christmas whether they are expecting anything or not). The good news is that it is best to keep it down under 7 pages or so.

...and the first, most important thing is to realise I do not want you to do what *I* want you to do...

I want you to make the most accurate, concise, report you can on the nature of the Irish sex industry, and how you feel the department should move forward with better legislation. You are the expert. :)

Offer the minister the benefit of your expertise, wisdom and understanding.

I believe he will respect you and want to hear whatever you have to say, but first you have to say it.

(and I am now so tired I am having trouble working out what I am thinking!)

[the traveller]

Sorry, I have read this twice now and you need to be clearer on precisely what you want people to do :) Is it send an email, text, call, what? Does it need to go to TD's, press, where? If so it this link? http://www.contact.ie/contact

I think if people have a template email or text to work from and a clear idea of who it needs to go to it will help with numbers.

Agree with you Lucy, I for one would appreciate help in framing a reply but am willing to do my bit to help roll back this prohibition legislation.Also ladies please do your bit as well 'cause when the guys submit I'm afraid they will use the Christine Keeler reply "well he would say that wouldn't he"

[LaBelleThatcher]

Sorry Lucy, I was WAY too tired and losing the run of the head there. Tomorrow the Department of Justice will REQUEST submissions and provide an address within the department of Justice. They will also, most likely provide guidelines, perhaps in the form of specific issues they want to hear about.

[Lucy Chambers]

Sorry Lucy, I was WAY too tired and losing the run of the head there. Tomorrow the Department of Justice will REQUEST submissions and provide an address within the department of Justice. They will also, most likely provide guidelines, perhaps in the form of specific issues they want to hear about.

Ah, super. Thank you :) In that case we could put together a template then.

[LaBelleThatcher]

Ah, super. Thank you :) In that case we could put together a template then.

They may even do all that for you, some come out in the form of online questionnaires which is brilliant :)

[Half Man and Half Dildo]

In February when Alan Shatter announced this consultation process he had this to say -


This is an issue which affects individuals and communities. It is also a societal issue. There are differing and genuinely held views on this matter. Public debate should be open to the widest possible audience and I want to ensure that everyone who wishes to make a contribution to this important debate is given the opportunity to do so. That is the reason I have decided on a consultation process before charting the way ahead. To help inform the debate, I have already published my Department's report on Swedish legislation criminalising the purchase of sexual services. This is available on the Department's website (www.justice.ie).

I have highlighted what I believe to be a very important point which Alan Shatter is clearly aware of, namely that there really is two sides to this debate. Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears to me that Shatter doesn't believe everything he hears from Ruhama.

One of the most important things for any sex-worker to do is for them to inform the minister that he needs to listen to them, the sex-workers themselves, instead of some holier-than-thou knowitall who refuses to even engage with the people whose lives the law will impact upon.

[espresso]

we will get the details tomorrow
This is the time to speak (or write) sitting behind the computer writing comments on site especially this one is not going to work and neither is writing to TDs
Be part of the consultation, get the document read it, read it a few times write down what you want to say and send it in
Be honest
No is the time now or never.
I call particularly on the escorts to write in say what you feel what you think
Ruhama feed on fear of gong public but this your chance to be part of the debate
Be part of the consultation

[LaBelleThatcher]

Also, I cannot stress enough, make sure the very first thing you explain is why you cannot just put your name address and phone number at the top and clear your calendar to attend a related conference.

Remember, that kind of difficulty never looks as alarming as it really is from an outside perspective. In a lot of ways you are living on a different planet to your reader's idea of what sex work is like. Remember what *you* thought sex work was like when you were a kid sneaking a peak at the Sunday World? You have to remember that and use this opportunity to educate your reader about the reality of that.

One of the things that sums that credibility gap up for me is when any of these idiots starts raving that we "Cannot *normalise* purrostitution".

Too right we can't...but only because it *IS* normal everyday life already for everybody connected with the sex industry, and all anyone is trying to do is communicate that fact accurately.

...and guys...as in, persons with penii in need of service provision and under threat of criminalisation...*YOU* need to get in there and make your case even more than we do.

Yours it the hardest case to make, and we haven't a cat's chance in hell of making that case unless you do all you can to back us up in your own words...on the plus side, as this must be anonymous you are safe to open your heart, and your truth, as most men never do in a lifetime.

If I had to sum up clients in a single sentence that sentence would be "It's not what you think.", now, you have to break out of all your own defence mechanisms and inhibition and explain how it really*IS* so even Sarah Benson "gets it" on a human level.

[espresso]

I would say put your name on it
It will be taken much more seriously than an anonymous form
I will bet all my cash that all the ruhama ones will have names on them

Also A you arent doing anything illegal and B your names arent been printed anywhere

As for the paper itself we will find out tomorrow but I wouldn't say it just a case of write 500 words on your thoghts on prostitution law
It will more likley be questions like
What do you feel is the best way to curb traffickng?
What is the best way to protect prostitutes from dangers they face?

and so on...

[LaBelleThatcher]

I would say put your name on it
It will be taken much more seriously than an anonymous form
I will bet all my cash that all the ruhama ones will have names on them

Also A you arent doing anything illegal and B your names arent been printed anywhere

As for the paper itself we will find out tomorrow but I wouldn't say it just a case of write 500 words on your thoghts on prostitution law
It will more likley be questions like
What do you feel is the best way to curb traffickng?
What is the best way to protect prostitutes from dangers they face?

and so on...

My real name went in to the department earlier in the year. You can trust the depertment with your names, but we will have to clarify that names will not be acknowledged in the final report (as has happened in other areas).

In fact, the more people getting on the phone to enquire into anonimity will have a pretty dramatic effect in terms of the Department of Justice paying attention.

[Half Man and Half Dildo]

My real name went in to the department earlier in the year. You can trust the depertment with your names, but we will have to clarify that names will not be acknowledged in the final report (as has happened in other areas).

In fact, the more people getting on the phone to enquire into anonimity will have a pretty dramatic effect in terms of the Department of Justice paying attention.

Eileen, have you got a specific number for enquiries about this consultation process?

[LaBelleThatcher]

Not until the consultation is formally announced - now a day overdue unless Sen Katherine Zappone got it wrong (like so many things) when she tweeted it.

When it is announced there will usually be a number for enquiries with it.

[the traveller]

When it is announced there will usually be a number for enquiries with it.

I'm sure you will, but just in case a reminder, post a link for us all. Also I'm thinking of visiting my local T.D. and Senator and discussing this topic ( I'm old, free and single and carry no guilt) so any pointers would be very welcome.

[Morpheus]

Did I miss it or has the consultation document been released? Or is there a delay?:confused:

And apologies for being thick but after reading all the above, i still have no idea how to access the consultation document when it's released or who I have to email (or write to) with my comments?:o

[Rodney69]

Think you're looking for this Morph
https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/threads/94009-Department-of-Justice-Discussion-Document-at-last!

[LaBelleThatcher]

Did I miss it or has the consultation document been released? Or is there a delay?:confused:


Whatever it is you have been drinking...could you send a bottle around here? ;)



And apologies for being thick but after reading all the above, i still have no idea how to access the consultation document when it's released or who I have to email (or write to) with my comments?:o

You got that part right...they forgot to spell it out, I'll try and find out in the week and hopefully get them to amend the page.

Meanwhile, just send your thoughts to Alan Shatter...

NOOOOOOO...not THOSE thoughts...the OTHER ones... :D

[Patricia]

Document does seem to be missing:
Where do we write?
What is the deadline (how long do we have to submit our views)?
What about confidentiality (If people want to make submissions but ask that there name is withheld, will that be respected. That does need to be clarified as replies to such consultations can be made fully public in some cases. In some cases all someone would need to do is make a FOI request and gov would have to hand over info.)?

[LaBelleThatcher]

Document is there:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB12000187
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Discussion%20Document%20on%20Future%20Direction%20of%20Prostitution%20Legislatio n.pdf/Files/Discussion%20Document%20on%20Future%20Direction%20of%20Prostitution%20Legislatio n.pdf

However, the details of when and where are SO VAGUE it is downright annoying.

I will call them in week and find out details...but, to be honest, if you do not put your name on a submission then they cannot name you.

Try here:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Contact_us

[espresso]

Pat
I advice you and everyone else to include your name
They arent looking for your PPS number and DNA sample just your name
Your submition will be taken much more seriously
If you want to contact the department about fine but I would advice you put in your name

I would also tell you to go to the public meeting thing on in the Autumn

I plan to do both but as mentioned still not seeing were I am to send the info.
This is the only time you are going to be asked about this dont let TORL hog the consultation like they do the media

We need to work on this and applications need to be thoroughly researched and written very carefully
They ask you questions they want answers.

I am trying to get people together online or in person to help put applications together advice you on facts figures and strategy
If interested PM me

[the traveller]

yep! interested

[Half Man and Half Dildo]

My guess is that Ruhama will try and wheel out someone such as Dublin Call Girl or Free Irish Woman as exhibit A at the public meeting. I'd be willing to donate towards their costs if need be for someone like Laura Agustin or Pye Jacobsen to attend.

[Patricia]

My guess is that Ruhama will try and wheel out someone such as Dublin Call Girl or Free Irish Woman as exhibit A at the public meeting. I'd be willing to donate towards their costs if need be for someone like Laura Agustin or Pye Jacobsen to attend.

Re this, I think you can buy vouchers for places like lastminute.com online and then you can just give the voucher number to someone and they can use it (they have no way of getting your credit card details to see your name etc) and all that comes up on your credit card bill is lastminute.com obviously. If there are people interested in coming from abroad but need travel and accommodation paid for, a lastminute.com collection could be made perhaps!

[Patricia]

Pat
I am trying to get people together online or in person to help put applications together advice you on facts figures and strategy

I was thinking something similar, see https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/threads/94136-Prostitution-Consultaion-Discussions-on-E-I

Let me know if you have better ideas.

[LaBelleThatcher]

My guess is that Ruhama will try and wheel out someone such as Dublin Call Girl or Free Irish Woman as exhibit A at the public meeting. I'd be willing to donate towards their costs if need be for someone like Laura Agustin or Pye Jacobsen to attend.

How are they going to do that? A quick change act? Be worth going just to see that ;)

I am going, Brooke Magnanti should be there (as long as she isn't "double booked" we don't know the date, either), and I am hoping other people will find it in them to turn up.

Pat, I would personally be VERY proud to be in your company if you could bring yourself to turn up, but completely understand if you cannot. Still, you ARE the new generation of Independent Escort marketing run to a far higher standard than most conventional businesses....and sooner or later people are going to have to get used to that reality.

They can make you as illegal as they like, and talk as much bald faced sh*t as they like, but they cannot make you into a bad, unethical or sleazy person.

For anyone who is worrying, Alan Shatter and the Department of Justice have had my real name since January. I do not even feel unsafe, but I will call them tomorrow and see if I can get them to amend the website with details.

[Half Man and Half Dildo]

Pat, I would personally be VERY proud to be in your company if you could bring yourself to turn up

I'm reminded of Daniel in the lions den :)

[LaBelleThatcher]

I'm reminded of Daniel in the lions den :)

More like Dr Who in the the Dalek Empire...but WHO WON? ;)

[the traveller]

lost on penalties.

[Morpheus]

Whatever it is you have been drinking...could you send a bottle around here? ;)



You got that part right...they forgot to spell it out, I'll try and find out in the week and hopefully get them to amend the page.

Meanwhile, just send your thoughts to Alan Shatter...

NOOOOOOO...not THOSE thoughts...the OTHER ones... :D


I did once before Labelle. I emailed him my thoughts with links to a good article about how the Swedish model further endangers escorts safety. I obviously used a proxy email.

Got an email response from one of his aides requesting my real address (so that they could know which constituency I was in) and my telephone number (so that they could contact me).:eek:.

So that was the end of that!!:(.

if you do find out how to reply please post on this thread as I have been already puting somehting together mainly with links to articles from all over the world which counter the Ruhamma/Swedish model.

[LaBelleThatcher]

Funny, I got that same requesting real address thingy now I remember...it wasn't a big deal for me...

I must talk to them and see if they will cop on and suspend that so people can speak freely...

Of course, it doesn't mean they did not read what you had to say... ;)

[LaBelleThatcher]

Talked to a lovely guy at the Department of Justice today who said details will be sorted out as soon as IT get round to it.

The conference still has to be arranged but we will know as soon as they do.

[Jack in the Box]

As many people on our side as possible should make submissions.

Also we should get a good group to represent us at the conference. Laura Agustin or Pye Jacobsen should be contacted. I wouldn’t stop at them and would poach as many experts as possible.

We need to do homework and find out about all the statistics. Plus find out where Ruhama and the ICI obtain theirs from and debunk their claims.

We all have a contempt for the Swedish laws on sex work but which model should we decide on in order to obtain the broadest amount of support? Solutions to reduce crime and disturbance are an important part of the argument.

Also I think that E-I should go out of it’s way to come down on even a hint of untoward behaviour against escorts advertising on this site like a ton of bricks. We shouldn’t give gutter journalists trying to make a story at the expense of the sex industry an inch!

[LaBelleThatcher]

We need to do homework and find out about all the statistics. Plus find out where Ruhama and the ICI obtain theirs from and debunk their claims.


Friendly little hint:
This is why everybody needs to be very, VERY nice to Patricia...because she already knows the details so well she can recite them in her sleep, and often does...except ye were all way to busy looking for boob shots to notice... :p

[Morpheus]

Friendly little hint:
This is why everybody needs to be very, VERY nice to Patricia...because she already knows the details so well she can recite them in her sleep, and often does...except ye were all way to busy looking for boob shots to notice... :p

Now, now Eileen!;) That's how I got started in this whole business in the first place....by looking at boob shots!! Boobs have a lot to answer for if you ask me!!:p:p:p

[Morpheus]

As many people on our side as possible should make submissions.

Also we should get a good group to represent us at the conference. Laura Agustin or Pye Jacobsen should be contacted. I wouldn’t stop at them and would poach as many experts as possible.

We need to do homework and find out about all the statistics. Plus find out where Ruhama and the ICI obtain theirs from and debunk their claims.

We all have a contempt for the Swedish laws on sex work but which model should we decide on in order to obtain the broadest amount of support? Solutions to reduce crime and disturbance are an important part of the argument.

Also I think that E-I should go out of it’s way to come down on even a hint of untoward behaviour against escorts advertising on this site like a ton of bricks. We shouldn’t give gutter journalists trying to make a story at the expense of the sex industry an inch!

I have been wondering about that Jack. The consultation document by the department of justice is fantastic!! Really - everyone should read it through!! It actually goes through the models in the U.K, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. It also covers countries that have similar type legislation such as -Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Greece. It also mentions some recent positive changes to the law in the state of Ontario in Canada.

They give pro's and con's of each model from the view point of each model's proponents and critics.

For me personally, the New Zealand model is the best, with the exception of one important prohibition - non-residents are not allowed to work as escorts! That would be the end of escorting in Ireland!;) The New Zealand law is a mix of decriminalization and regulation (which I think is the ideal to have some balance and prevent criminals from taking advantage of decriminalization).

Unfortunately, I don't think Ireland is ready for such an open minded approach and we may have to compromise in what is asked for.:( At the end of the day, escorts know best what they want and should have the final say from the pro-escorting lobby.


I hope to post more on this in the discussion thread started by Patricia.

[fada1]

submitted mine, 10 pages, kept to format, very informative read. Available by email to anyone who wants to see what I wrote.


I have been wondering about that Jack. The consultation document by the department of justice is fantastic!! Really - everyone should read it through!! It actually goes through the models in the U.K, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. It also covers countries that have similar type legislation such as -Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Greece. It also mentions some recent positive changes to the law in the state of Ontario in Canada.

They give pro's and con's of each model from the view point of each model's proponents and critics.

For me personally, the New Zealand model is the best, with the exception of one important prohibition - non-residents are not allowed to work as escorts! That would be the end of escorting in Ireland!;) The New Zealand law is a mix of decriminalization and regulation (which I think is the ideal to have some balance and prevent criminals from taking advantage of decriminalization).

Unfortunately, I don't think Ireland is ready for such an open minded approach and we may have to compromise in what is asked for.:( At the end of the day, escorts know best what they want and should have the final say from the pro-escorting lobby.


I hope to post more on this in the discussion thread started by Patricia.

[LaBelleThatcher]

submitted mine, 10 pages, kept to format, very informative read. Available by email to anyone who wants to see what I wrote.

*RESPECT*

(Mine is barely begun! To much flu last week)

PLease...I SO want to see this...email it to me at eileenlang00@gmail.com ?

[Morpheus]

submitted mine, 10 pages, kept to format, very informative read. Available by email to anyone who wants to see what I wrote.

Excellent Fada. Who did you submit it to? (I presume it was to the joint oireachtas committee set up to look at this?).

I haven't found an address or email to send it to them.

You mentioned format? I presume there is a prescribed format somewhere?

Would be grateful for pointers to the above. Thanks.

[Jack in the Box]

Friendly little hint:
This is why everybody needs to be very, VERY nice to Patricia...because she already knows the details so well she can recite them in her sleep, and often does...except ye were all way to busy looking for boob shots to notice... :p

There are plenty of distactions on this site alright!! Well good on Patricia. It is important that we all familiarise with these details so that TOTRL doesn't get away with outrageous statements like saying that nearly all sex workers are forced into the industry, suffer from health problems or were abused when they were younger. They pick a very bad case and then try to pretend that a whole section of a population is the same.

[Jack in the Box]

I have been wondering about that Jack. The consultation document by the department of justice is fantastic!! Really - everyone should read it through!! It actually goes through the models in the U.K, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. It also covers countries that have similar type legislation such as -Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Greece. It also mentions some recent positive changes to the law in the state of Ontario in Canada.

They give pro's and con's of each model from the view point of each model's proponents and critics.

For me personally, the New Zealand model is the best, with the exception of one important prohibition - non-residents are not allowed to work as escorts! That would be the end of escorting in Ireland!;) The New Zealand law is a mix of decriminalization and regulation (which I think is the ideal to have some balance and prevent criminals from taking advantage of decriminalization).

Unfortunately, I don't think Ireland is ready for such an open minded approach and we may have to compromise in what is asked for.:( At the end of the day, escorts know best what they want and should have the final say from the pro-escorting lobby.


I hope to post more on this in the discussion thread started by Patricia.

You're right I think Morpheus. And that might win over the middle ground as well. We need to build up a lobby as strong as possible and spread the word to other like minded individuals to get involved.