View Full Version : The 'normalisation ' of prostitution
There have been a number of references in articles , blogs etc dealing with the ' normalisation ' of prostitution by various internet sites, including this one. This is where participants on these sites, escorts, clients, members, visitors etc are encouraged to believe that the buying and selling of sex is natural, perfectly normal. In fact, new members are encouraged to ' have fun ' both with escorts on bookings and with posting on the boards. Whats the fuss, its all fun thing, right ?
Well the one thing that has come out of all the recent dicussions on both sides of the criminalisation arguement is that there is virtual unanimity on the issue that prostitution and all that surrounds it is certainly not a 'fun thing'. How do you , as escorts and clients, feel about this so-called 'normalisation' of the industry ? Is it a good thing or not--should it be encouraged ?
I think a lot of what is said about this is bullshit. The classic example would be Ruhama's regular claims that men are ordering prostitutes like pizzas thesedays, we need a law criminalising the purchase of sex to cause a shift in society to make buying sex unacceptable. Hello! Buying sex is not as socially acceptable as buying pizza.
LaBelleThatcher
14-03-12, 01:02
Ah now...c'mon...you really have to be around a few thousand years longer yet to qualify as "normal"...some of these claims are absurd.
As far as anyone can estimate the number of sex workers in Ireland has been pretty consistent at about 1000 - 1500 (depending on how you calculate it) for a couple of hundred years...and they really didn't order that much pizza in 1802.
Sex workers are an unfortunate necessity...because we all want our children, and grandchildren growing up in a society where they can aspire to find "the one" and live happily ever after...sex workers come in when that aspiration falls down, we have been doing it for thousands of years and we do it very well. It works, it is part of the fabric of our society.
...but there are still a lot of people who believe that the sex industry is something made up to sell red tops...seriously...they don't believe that because they are stupid, they believe it because, deep down inside they want, even need to believe that everybody on earth finds "the one" sooner or later, and every woman is safe and has loads of career and life options...and they need to believe that to avoid being afraid of waking up one morning without those things themselves.
Understandable enough...
As a result, you couldn't "normalise" sex work if you wanted to.
But my favourite is the claim that it is the "demand" that creates sex workers...as if we, as women, to look outside...notice all these guys who want to buy sex and decide that as there is nothing good on TV we will sell them some...it might take our minds off worrying about the rent being 3 months overdue for a while...
I think a lot of what is said about this is bullshit. The classic example would be Ruhama's regular claims that men are ordering prostitutes like pizzas thesedays, we need a law criminalising the purchase of sex to cause a shift in society to make buying sex unacceptable. Hello! Buying sex is not as socially acceptable as buying pizza.
Are you sure about this Patricia. Do you know how many calories there are in a 16" pizza ? I and many of the men I know, would far better approve the purchase of sex than a pizza any day.
Are you sure about this Patricia. Do you know how many calories there are in a 16" pizza ? I and many of the men I know, would far better approve the purchase of sex than a pizza any day.
I think you've completely missed the point of that analogy :confused:
Sex workers are an unfortunate necessity...because we all want our children, and grandchildren growing up in a society where they can aspire to find "the one" and live happily ever after...sex workers come in when that aspiration falls down, we have been doing it for thousands of years and we do it very well. It works, it is part of the fabric of our society.
...
That's an interesting point Eileen.
I dont think though that the likes of Ruhama are in the least bit worried about men who have been unable to find the 'love' both physical and mental of a woman. Imagine a man ( hetero) going through his whole life never having experienced sexual intimacy with a woman!!:eek: I wonder if they actually exist -- they probablt do. Now, that should be criminalised !! :)
I think you've completely missed the point of that analogy :confused:
Go way !! ;):D
LaBelleThatcher
14-03-12, 19:14
That's an interesting point Eileen.
I dont think though that the likes of Ruhama are in the least bit worried about men who have been unable to find the 'love' both physical and mental of a woman. Imagine a man ( hetero) going through his whole life never having experienced sexual intimacy with a woman!!:eek: I wonder if they actually exist -- they probablt do. Now, that should be criminalised !! :)
They do exist Ksteve...and when they do, unless celibacy is a choice, it is a tragedy...there is a female equivalent, just as sad and desperate, but because of the difference between male and female sex drives it is a different problem with different options available requiring different resolution. I am not, by any means, suggesting that a "darn good sh*g" without emotional involvement, will solve the whole problem for a man in that position, it won't, but it is a good first step...it is unlikely to be for a woman though...yet another sexual deficit in need of balancing.
Ah now...c'mon...you really have to be around a few thousand years longer yet to qualify as "normal"...some of these claims are absurd.
As far as anyone can estimate the number of sex workers in Ireland has been pretty consistent at about 1000 - 1500 (depending on how you calculate it) for a couple of hundred years...and they really didn't order that much pizza in 1802.
Sex workers are an unfortunate necessity...because we all want our children, and grandchildren growing up in a society where they can aspire to find "the one" and live happily ever after...sex workers come in when that aspiration falls down, we have been doing it for thousands of years and we do it very well. It works, it is part of the fabric of our society.
...but there are still a lot of people who believe that the sex industry is something made up to sell red tops...seriously...they don't believe that because they are stupid, they believe it because, deep down inside they want, even need to believe that everybody on earth finds "the one" sooner or later, and every woman is safe and has loads of career and life options...and they need to believe that to avoid being afraid of waking up one morning without those things themselves.
Understandable enough...
As a result, you couldn't "normalise" sex work if you wanted to.
But my favourite is the claim that it is the "demand" that creates sex workers...as if we, as women, to look outside...notice all these guys who want to buy sex and decide that as there is nothing good on TV we will sell them some...it might take our minds off worrying about the rent being 3 months overdue for a while...
This must be the best post ever written on Ei.
I bet that 95% of the posters here don't understand what are you on about:D
I think your brains are wasted on this industry.
LaBelleThatcher
14-03-12, 23:03
This must be the best post ever written on Ei.
I bet that 95% of the posters here don't understand what are you on about:D
I think your brains are wasted on this industry.
I dunno, seem to be lots of "wasted" brains working out around here really. Not least yours. :D
Ah now...c'mon...you really have to be around a few thousand years longer yet to qualify as "normal"...some of these claims are absurd.
As far as anyone can estimate the number of sex workers in Ireland has been pretty consistent at about 1000 - 1500 (depending on how you calculate it) for a couple of hundred years...and they really didn't order that much pizza in 1802.
Sex workers are an unfortunate necessity...because we all want our children, and grandchildren growing up in a society where they can aspire to find "the one" and live happily ever after...sex workers come in when that aspiration falls down, we have been doing it for thousands of years and we do it very well. It works, it is part of the fabric of our society.
...but there are still a lot of people who believe that the sex industry is something made up to sell red tops...seriously...they don't believe that because they are stupid, they believe it because, deep down inside they want, even need to believe that everybody on earth finds "the one" sooner or later, and every woman is safe and has loads of career and life options...and they need to believe that to avoid being afraid of waking up one morning without those things themselves.
Understandable enough...
As a result, you couldn't "normalise" sex work if you wanted to.
But my favourite is the claim that it is the "demand" that creates sex workers...as if we, as women, to look outside...notice all these guys who want to buy sex and decide that as there is nothing good on TV we will sell them some...it might take our minds off worrying about the rent being 3 months overdue for a while...
Yes, I often thought this myself Eileen. However I suppose, if one believes that a very large portion of women are 'forced' or trafficked into prostitution, then it is not too much of a leap to accept that unscrupulous people will drive such women into the marketplace to fill the void that you have acknowleged already exists in the lives of many men. There is a logic to it coming from that standpoint.
Your statistic that the numbers of prostitutes has always remained fairly constant is very interesting. I am surprised as I thought that the internet had really mushroomed the size of the sex industry.
Ah now...c'mon...you really have to be around a few thousand years longer yet to qualify as "normal"...some of these claims are absurd.
As far as anyone can estimate the number of sex workers in Ireland has been pretty consistent at about 1000 - 1500 (depending on how you calculate it) for a couple of hundred years...and they really didn't order that much pizza in 1802.
Sex workers are an unfortunate necessity...because we all want our children, and grandchildren growing up in a society where they can aspire to find "the one" and live happily ever after...sex workers come in when that aspiration falls down, we have been doing it for thousands of years and we do it very well. It works, it is part of the fabric of our society.
...but there are still a lot of people who believe that the sex industry is something made up to sell red tops...seriously...they don't believe that because they are stupid, they believe it because, deep down inside they want, even need to believe that everybody on earth finds "the one" sooner or later, and every woman is safe and has loads of career and life options...and they need to believe that to avoid being afraid of waking up one morning without those things themselves.
Understandable enough...
As a result, you couldn't "normalise" sex work if you wanted to.
But my favourite is the claim that it is the "demand" that creates sex workers...as if we, as women, to look outside...notice all these guys who want to buy sex and decide that as there is nothing good on TV we will sell them some...it might take our minds off worrying about the rent being 3 months overdue for a while...
:hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail:
Eileen - I am officially your fan now!!!!
What adds strength to your words is that you've "been there"; admitted that you didn't like the work itself, but are still so objective and non-judgemental. And of course - you're actually debating for the benefit of escorts working today - without any possible gain for yourself!
And what has earned you my greatest admiration - is that you've a public name and have debated this on public forums/ radio. I would never have the courage to do somehting like that.
So here's a genuine "I'm not worthy!!!" salute :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
:hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail:
Eileen - I am officially your fan now!!!!
Welcome aboard Morph but just remember I am the founding member of thev fan club and Fan-in- Chief !! :D
LaBelleThatcher
15-03-12, 00:25
Yes, I often thought this myself Eileen. However I suppose, if one believes that a very large portion of women are 'forced' or trafficked into prostitution, then it is not too much of a leap to accept that unscrupulous people will drive such women into the marketplace to fill the void that you have acknowleged already exists in the lives of many men. There is a logic to it coming from that standpoint.
Your statistic that the numbers of prostitutes has always remained fairly constant is very interesting. I am surprised as I thought that the internet had really mushroomed the size of the sex industry.
Not even slightly, because it just shifted from the streets and the parlours into agencies after the 1993 act and then shifted further onto the internet as it became more popular.
In the old days there were anything up to (sic) 1,600 in Monto alone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monto ) but you have to adjust that to take into account the fact that there was also a garrison and, as Napoleon said:
"A whore is a soldier's comfort" - as a result occupying forces would tend to encourage, or even import their own whores - it was good for morale and kept the troops detached from the local population and out of most common forms of trouble.
I can't remember the exact way I did it but I managed to come up with a figure of at least 1000 in 1993, and Ruhama came up with similar figures consistently.
The internet gave the sex industry a far higher, more competitive profile, and greater diversity (no way was there anything like as much variety on offer pre-internet).
A marketplace void only means that the same women charge more and work harder. :)
:hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail:
Eileen - I am officially your fan now!!!!
What adds strength to your words is that you've "been there"; admitted that you didn't like the work itself, but are still so objective and non-judgemental. And of course - you're actually debating for the benefit of escorts working today - without any possible gain for yourself!
And what has earned you my greatest admiration - is that you've a public name and have debated this on public forums/ radio. I would never have the courage to do somehting like that.
So here's a genuine "I'm not worthy!!!" salute :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
Thank you *SO* much...you have no idea how much this means...particularly affirmation of my objectivity. I just cannot, for the life of me see where anyone gets the idea that because they hated something everybody else must be punished for not hating it...that's just selfish and crazy.
I am not big saint though...."Eileen Lang" is not a name that would ring any bells with my mother (I chose it initially just to be able to hover around "under the radar" - I had no intention of wading in to this extent!). I hide my identity like everyone else.
As for the rest, I get a kick out of fixing broken things. I started trying to fix this in 1993...seems churlish not to follow through now, and I am getting a great buzz out of all the new people and concepts I am learning about.
Welcome aboard Morph but just remember I am the founding member of thev fan club and Fan-in- Chief !! :D
ALL THIS FLATTERY!!!
:o:D:o:D:o:D:o
Yes, I often thought this myself Eileen. However I suppose, if one believes that a very large portion of women are 'forced' or trafficked into prostitution, then it is not too much of a leap to accept that unscrupulous people will drive such women into the marketplace to fill the void that you have acknowleged already exists in the lives of many men. There is a logic to it coming from that standpoint.
Your statistic that the numbers of prostitutes has always remained fairly constant is very interesting. I am surprised as I thought that the internet had really mushroomed the size of the sex industry.
I understand the logic of the argument: get rid of customers and the product goes
If everyone in world stopped drinking coke the company will go bust
I just dont think it will work and I am in favour of legalising sex work
I understand the logic of the argument: get rid of customers and the product goes
If everyone in world stopped drinking coke the company will go bust
I just dont think it will work and I am in favour of legalising sex work
Correct. So perhaps in reality both sides actually agree for all the reasons given, that there will always be a demand , there will always be a market place. The size of it is critical. Rhumama want to cut or destroy that demand by criminalising the clients.
'Trafficking' is the lifeblood of the Ruhama arguement. Take this issue out of the equation, satisfy the general public that this can be stopped or cut to a tiny percentage . Society can then relax and the get the space to appreciate all of the arguements that Eileen puts forward in respect of financially optionless women and all the other points about sexually and emotionally deprived men.
Trafficking is the NO.1 issue in all of this.
It is the achilles heel at the moment, for both sides. Ruhama et al need to show this as a major cancer for which society must eradicate immediately by taking the all important step of criminalising all of the buyers of sex , even if it means causing collateral damage to non-trafficed but optionless ladies . If they fail in convincing society and lawmakers that traffiicking is a major problem, their pro-criminalsation fails.
On the otherhand,the sex industry has to prove the exact opposite, that trafficking exists but as a fraction only of the sex industry and if it cant, then despite all of the other very persuasive arguements,it risks losing the campaign.
Good luck everyone.
LaBelleThatcher
15-03-12, 12:57
Trafficking is the NO.1 issue in all of this.
SO TRUE...and the thing here is, take all the vested interests of the sex industry (pro and con) out of the equation and for the sake of the victims trafficking needs separating and isolating from the sex industry some time prior to yesterday.
A knife cuts both ways.
Start implying that 95% of indoor prostitutes are trafficked you MAY get a kneejerk reaction that gets everybody nicely persecuted, but there is another dangerous side effect. Every time people catch a glimpse of indoor sex workers, sunday world exposes, a quick salacious surf in work, whatever, their brain registers:
"This is what trafficking looks like"
They see barely fuzzed out Samatha Blandford wandering around her charmingly provincial kitchen in Clondalkin, coming across as everybody's dream boss, explaining that they have "loads of men who will take our word for it you are absolutely gorgeous, but you really will need some photos at some point"...and their brain registers:
"This is what trafficking looks like"
They see polite, smiling Chinese and Thai girls gently offering hand relief with massage but firmly refusing to offer sex and their brain registers:
"This is what trafficking looks like"
...and, albeit unintentionally, trafficking suddenly doesn't look so very urgent.
This (after the singularly inappropriate ad, but amercans are incorrigible that way) is what trafficking looks like:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=650872n
A desperate, terrified, woman utterly betrayed by people she loved and trusted.
When it gets to that stage does it even register with her whether she is sold for sex or political advantages?
I don't think so...she knows that her only chance of survival rests in meeting impossible conditions either way.
I think it is even dangerous to equate trafficking with historical images of coerced prostitution. These are not girls who are daft enough to fly to Milan to meet the guy they fell in love with on holiday only to realise he expects them to sell sex to pay his "mafia debts" and is not above giving her a clatter if she fails...that is mental, emotional and physical abuse compounded by naivety and co-dependence, and deserves to be responded to, punished AND WARNED AGAINST as such (how many girls get themselves into these jams simply BECAUSE they are conditioned to believe that as long as they are not snatched off the street and do not attempt illegal emigration they are safe from abuse and exploitation?). It is *NOT* trafficking, or slavery.
Nor is finding your way to a strange country where you can barely speak the language and realising that selling sex is your only option to stay there (be there, done that) and you can either work for others who can arrange these things, or (as I did, but it is harder, and probably much more dangerous) work alone.
They see barely fuzzed out Samatha Blandford wandering around her charmingly provincial kitchen in Clondalkin, coming across as everybody's dream boss, explaining that they have "loads of men who will take our word for it you are absolutely gorgeous, but you really will need some photos at some point"...and their brain registers:
"This is what trafficking looks like"
They see polite, smiling Chinese and Thai girls gently offering hand relief with massage but firmly refusing to offer sex and their brain registers:
"This is what trafficking looks like"
.
With respect Eileen I would disagree with you here.
I doubt if many viewers thought that the contacting of Ms.Blandford by phone in her home kitchen by girls seeking to work for an agency, conjured up visions of trafficking. I think however, what the public do associate with trafficking is young girls, with little or no english, carrying black plastic bags, being shipped around the country in the dead of night by unsavoury male characters and having little or no say in whom they see ( and the number), the services they provide and the hours and conditions of work. These are the type of factors which influence the public and lets face it they have a point.
E-I has been associated as being one of the main financial beneficiaries of the type of escorting activity to which I refer . The ability of the 'elective ' escorts to press their own case successfully is made more difficult so long as they continue to support E-I with their own advertising revenue at the same time as the public perceives that E-I is not taking measures to stop publishing adverts concerning trafficked girls. The public will not be impressed with the ' well , how are we to know ' arguement IMHO..
It reminds me a bit of soccer hooligan violence in the UK in the 80s and 90s. The football clubs argued that these hooligans were a product of society, it was therefore society's problem . The reality is that the clubs themselves were forced to take and pay for whatever measures were necessary ( i.e banning of undesireables, cctv monitory,strict ticket control security personnel, police etc ) in order to put an end to the problem and by and large they have been successful.
One could say the same things of male contributors here, although we are constantly reminded that we have little or no influence here as we do not pay a subscription and more importantly as 95 % or more of clients are not members and even less actually read any of our posts !
I think it is very much in Ruhama's interests to keep the visions of trafficking as being 'urgent' in the public mind.
LaBelleThatcher
15-03-12, 14:58
With respect Eileen I would disagree with you here.
I doubt if many viewers thought that the contacting of Ms.Blandford by phone in her home kitchen by girls seeking to work for an agency, conjured up visions of trafficking. I think however, what the public do associate with trafficking is young girls, with little or no english, carrying black plastic bags, being shipped around the country in the dead of night by unsavoury male characters...
I would disagree with you there Ksteve...remember, by far the majority of people watching these things honestly do not believe there is really any such thing as sex work *at all*...and are, as result, very suggestable.
For me that was pretty much the *LEAST* convincing part of the whole program. It was all suggestion and surmise, and honestly, to me looked more as thought they were "doing a moonlight" as anything, not forgetting that being in a vulnerable position and being stalked by a prime-time team can lead to sudden, late night changes of address quite spontaneously.
...and having little or no say in whom they see ( and the number), the services they provide and the hours and conditions of work. These are the type of factors which influence the public and lets face it they have a point.
Nonsense, there was no actual evidence for any of this presented at all. It was all surmise by the voice over. As I hear it, any hard evidence tended to suggest that, to the contrary, they were on just less than a 50:50 split (which I DO NOT approve of), and were even sending money home by western union.
Now that is pimping, and seriously NOT ON, in every sense...but compared to the real victims of any kind of trafficking those girls are "living the dream".
E-I has been associated as being one of the main financial beneficiaries of the type of escorting activity to which I refer . The ability of the 'elective ' escorts to press their own case successfully is made more difficult so long as they continue to support E-I with their own advertising revenue at the same time as the public perceives that E-I is not taking measures to stop publishing adverts concerning trafficked girls. The public will not be impressed with the ' well , how are we to know ' arguement IMHO..
Can I hold comment on that for now?
Partly because I am a guest here, and, given the courtesy with which I have been treated am under injunction from *MY* inner voices to refrain from instigating or encouraging negative criticism but also, partly because I am beginning to see how E-I is actively hampered in dealing with those issues effectively by their "outlaw" status in Ireland that makes checking realistically impossible. There are some suggestions flying around to make this far easier and more efficient in the very near future, but nothing is final, so I am not going to jump the gun.
But...BOTTOM LINE...it is *NOT* only for E-I (from the UK, no less, due to existing legislation - can the claim the high powered telescope against all that tax the pay to the UK inland revenue, rather than here, I wonder?) to police their advertisers single handed. This is something everybody can contribute to.
It reminds me a bit of soccer hooligan violence in the UK in the 80s and 90s. The football clubs argued that these hooligans were a product of society, it was therefore society's problem . The reality is that the clubs themselves were forced to take and pay for whatever measures were necessary ( i.e banning of undesireables, cctv monitory,strict ticket control security personnel, police etc ) in order to put an end to the problem and by and large they have been successful.
But you see, until E-I are brought back out of exile and subject to Irish regulation they cannot be forced to comply with ANYTHING, and I can see why they would resist voluntary compliance while forced to operate at such a distance, with so little power to control or monitor their subscribers.
One could say the same things of male contributors here, although we are constantly reminded that we have little or no influence here as we do not pay a subscription and more importantly as 95 % or more of clients are not members and even less actually read any of our posts !.
I do get the impression that E-I would happily move heaven and earth (short of breaching the data protection act, that also ties them under UK law) to facilitate any ideas anyone might have in terms of combating trafficking and co-ercion. If I am wrong about that I will soon lose patience with them, but my gut tells me I am not wrong, so far.
One thing I am very sure about is that this is a direction liable to get threads closed and posters banned, not because anyone has anything to hide but because there is real stuff going on in these areas that is not ready to be shown yet in front of the NGOs, Romainian pimps and others who have callouses from refreshing the page whenever it crops up here.
I think it is very much in Ruhama's interests to keep the visions of trafficking as being 'urgent' in the public mind.
Not "urgent" that makes it very hard to explain why they are spending so much time and funding on junkets and lobbying to persecute the sex industry, and so little on using existing law to rescue the co-erced and pursue the prosecutions of their tormentors. It is just in there interests to present visions of "quantity" hence the constant, unsubstantiated "gosh percentages".
I would disagree with you there Ksteve...remember, by far the majority of people watching these things honestly do not believe there is really any such thing as sex work *at all*...and are, as result, very suggestable.
For me that was pretty much the *LEAST* convincing part of the whole program. It was all suggestion and surmise, and honestly, to me looked more as thought they were "doing a moonlight" as anything, not forgetting that being in a vulnerable position and being stalked by a prime-time team can lead to sudden, late night changes of address quite spontaneously.
Trafficking is the issue and I do believe that the public in general are capable of distinguishing between a trafficked and a non-trafficked prostitute, subject of course to being given the true facts.
Many people on this site ( let alone the general public ) were unhappy with the images of these girls being shipped around the country as depicted on the programme. When these, non-speaking english girls turn up briefly for a few days in small towns around the country, it is easy to see how the perception might be that they are 'trafficked' in some way.And unfortunately, Perception in the battle for public opinion is very important, the 'facts' are more difficult to expose.
Nonsense, there was no actual evidence for any of this presented at all. It was all surmise by the voice over. As I hear it, any hard evidence tended to suggest that, to the contrary, they were on just less than a 50:50 split (which I DO NOT approve of), and were even sending money home by western union.
Now that is pimping, and seriously NOT ON, in every sense...but compared to the real victims of any kind of trafficking those girls are "living the dream".
IMO, it will be a very difficult task to persuade the public that these particular girls are 'elective' escorts but good luck.:)
Can I hold comment on that for now?
Partly because I am a guest here, and, given the courtesy with which I have been treated am under injunction from *MY* inner voices to refrain from instigating or encouraging negative criticism but also, partly because I am beginning to see how E-I is actively hampered in dealing with those issues effectively by their "outlaw" status in Ireland that makes checking realistically impossible. There are some suggestions flying around to make this far easier and more efficient in the very near future, but nothing is final, so I am not going to jump the gun.
But...BOTTOM LINE...it is *NOT* only for E-I (from the UK, no less, due to existing legislation - can the claim the high powered telescope against all that tax the pay to the UK inland revenue, rather than here, I wonder?) to police their advertisers single handed. This is something everybody can contribute to.
But you see, until E-I are brought back out of exile and subject to Irish regulation they cannot be forced to comply with ANYTHING, and I can see why they would resist voluntary compliance while forced to operate at such a distance, with so little power to control or monitor their subscribers.
Thats an interesting take Eilleen.Not sure that I would agree though.
.
I do get the impression that E-I would happily move heaven and earth (short of breaching the data protection act, that also ties them under UK law) to facilitate any ideas anyone might have in terms of combating trafficking and co-ercion. If I am wrong about that I will soon lose patience with them, but my gut tells me I am not wrong, so far.
One thing I am very sure about is that this is a direction liable to get threads closed and posters banned, not because anyone has anything to hide but because there is real stuff going on in these areas that is not ready to be shown yet in front of the NGOs, Romainian pimps and others who have callouses from refreshing the page whenever it crops up here.
Another interesting take.:)
Not "urgent" that makes it very hard to explain why they are spending so much time and funding on junkets and lobbying to persecute the sex industry, and so little on using existing law to rescue the co-erced and pursue the prosecutions of their tormentors. It is just in there interests to present visions of "quantity" hence the constant, unsubstantiated "gosh percentages".
Yes I agree, but they have succeeded so far unfortunately.
Ah now...c'mon...you really have to be around a few thousand years longer yet to qualify as "normal"...some of these claims are absurd...
Back to the OP,can I ask you Eileen for your view generally, do you think that websites like Punternet,E-I etc which encourage the exchange of information and views about escorts and introduce , quite openly , the 'have fun' with prositutes provides a posituve support and environment for working girls ?
LaBelleThatcher
15-03-12, 19:18
Trafficking is the issue and I do believe that the public in general are capable of distinguishing between a trafficked and a non-trafficked prostitute, subject of course to being given the true facts.
Then it is up to the industry (the sensitive might like to have a cushion handy to hide behind at this point) to combine to expose and present the true facts to the general public.
Many people on this site ( let alone the general public ) were unhappy with the images of these girls being shipped around the country as depicted on the programme. When these, non-speaking english girls turn up briefly for a few days in small towns around the country, it is easy to see how the perception might be that they are 'trafficked' in some way.And unfortunately, Perception in the battle for public opinion is very important, the 'facts' are more difficult to expose.
We do not even know if they are "non-speaking English" let alone what the reality of their lives is...the only way to find that out is to go out into the field, capture one and get her talking. Which is, of course actually a job for the guardai, not E-I, Primetime nor even the combined forces of hookers and punters...
One thing is for certain, if those girls are really coerced then Primetime placed their lives at risk for ratings. The Gardai (and just about anyone else with an iota of common sense and decency) would represent far less risk to them.
IMO, it will be a very difficult task to persuade the public that these particular girls are 'elective' escorts but good luck.:)
Premature, first find out what the story really is...failing that you take the course that will assure their safety to optimum whatever the truth is, and "eradicating the sex industry" (were is possible) is not going to achieve that. If they are trafficked and coerced it would render them of no use to their captors, and, as has been ably pointed out elsewhere, place their lives in real danger.
Not "urgent" that makes it very hard to explain why they are spending so much time and funding on junkets and lobbying to persecute the sex industry, and so little on using existing law to rescue the co-erced and pursue the prosecutions of their tormentors. It is just in there interests to present visions of "quantity" hence the constant, unsubstantiated "gosh percentages".
Yes I agree, but they have succeeded so far unfortunately.
As have a lot of formerly "untoucheable" NGOs who have watched in horror as their funding comes into question, contracts, then vanishes in similar circumstances of late...
There is absolutely no rationale I can think off for funding self appointed anti-sex industry lobbies when the very survival of essential services to children is being cut back...
I couldn't even justify seeking funding for a bona fide sex worker representative organisation. The one thing people active in the sex industry still have are adequate incomes. If we can't be *rsed funding it ourselves then we don't need it.
LaBelleThatcher
15-03-12, 19:52
Back to the OP,can I ask you Eileen for your view generally, do you think that websites like Punternet,E-I etc which encourage the exchange of information and views about escorts and introduce , quite openly , the 'have fun' with prositutes provides a posituve support and environment for working girls ?
I don't think there is a generic answer to that, or that there can be...it wouldn't suit me as a working environment at all...not my style (<word chosen with care. I do not mean "against my moral code". I just mean "not my style" - but, for most people that is a hard limit) and not something I would ever be comfortable with or able to work within, and I can think of a lot of clients who would feel the same, but it obviously works well for others, as an advertising venue and as a working community.
I think one of the biggest problems the sex industry generates within itself is a tendency for each facet to, even politically, present itself as the "one true way" into which the whole sex industry should be channelled.
That is preposterous, and keeps the industry divided against itself, insofar as it exists politically at all, and vulnerable to any lunatic fringe that wishes to attack it. It is no more likely that one style of sex work suits everybody than that one sunday paper suits everybody.
So, websites like Punternet, E-I etc provide a positive support and environment for every working girl who feels that they do.
KS- I think however, what the public do associate with trafficking is young girls, with little or no english, carrying black plastic bags, being shipped around the country in the dead of night by unsavoury male characters and having little or no say in whom they see ( and the number), the services they provide and the hours and conditions of work. These are the type of factors which influence the public and lets face it they have a point.
LBT - Nonsense, there was no actual evidence for any of this presented at all. It was all surmise by the voice over. As I hear it, any hard evidence tended to suggest that, to the contrary, they were on just less than a 50:50 split (which I DO NOT approve of), and were even sending money home by western union.
KS - Many people on this site ( let alone the general public ) were unhappy with the images of these girls being shipped around the country as depicted on the programme. When these, non-speaking english girls turn up briefly for a few days in small towns around the country, it is easy to see how the perception might be that they are 'trafficked' in some way.And unfortunately, Perception in the battle for public opinion is very important, the 'facts' are more difficult to expose.
LBT - Now that is pimping, and seriously NOT ON, in every sense...but compared to the real victims of any kind of trafficking those girls are "living the dream".
We do not even know if they are "non-speaking English" let alone what the reality of their lives is ...the only way to find that out is to go out into the field, capture one and get her talking . Which is, of course actually a job for the guardai, not E-I, Primetime nor even the combined forces of hookers and punters....
I agree with your last paragraph but this is precisely why I feel that the 'trafficking' images of these girls in the RTE programme cannot be dismissed as nonsense.
I don't think there is a generic answer to that, or that there can be...it wouldn't suit me as a working environment at all...not my style (<word chosen with care. I do not mean "against my moral code". I just mean "not my style" - but, for most people that is a hard limit) and not something I would ever be comfortable with or able to work within, and I can think of a lot of clients who would feel the same, but it obviously works well for others, as an advertising venue and as a working community.
Ha,ha - given your talent in this type of communication,it is hard to see anyone more suited to this type of environment.:)
You are right though, for a whole range of reasons I think it may not be a working environment that suits many escorts. I think some are uncertain whether the boards should be used as an advertising tool or the exact opposite ( a place to vent and sound off ) or a combination of both.
Certainly, I know that many escorts feel intimidated and are afraid to post for fear of being jumped on by the Gestapo from amongst their own number and this is a shame and others I feel have a love/hate relationship with the 'normalising' effect of the boards and pm system.Many I think really couldnt be bothered inter- acting with other members but would just prefer to use it as another method of arranging a booking. There was one particular escort I remember who posted on a UK board who was quite open about her wish to have as little inter-action as possible with 'punters' at all. Apparently though, she was really lovely on a booking !!
It's not everybody's cup of tea.!
LaBelleThatcher
17-03-12, 15:09
I agree with your last paragraph but this is precisely why I feel that the 'trafficking' images of these girls in the RTE programme cannot be dismissed as nonsense.
Sorry Ksteve, but that is pure daft...like saying that, in lieu of hard information, we should all assume from the latest Tombola Bingo ads that bingo encourages people into outdoor activities.
There was nothing, whatsoever, conclusive about any of that footage, it was literally meaningless footage with a clever voice over...I forget that I actually have a certain amount of media studies under my belt, but it CANNOT only be me who sees this? I absolutely refuse to pretend it was conclusive, when I know it was not, just to ensure people keep seeing me as a nice person.
There may be trafficking victims in Ireland, in dire need of real help but I am fairly certain none of them appeared on Primetime, much less TV3 - which is a *GOOD* thing, because if they had their lives might well be in serious danger or even, just plain *over* as a result of that, grossly irresponsible, readily identifiable, footage.
Ha,ha - given your talent in this type of communication,it is hard to see anyone more suited to this type of environment.:)
Sure, as long as I don't have to do "the sex bit"...the services on offer here are far too extensive and competitive for me to cope with...I prefer the old fashioned, romantic type of sex work...like the bit in the movie where Cynthia Payne goes off and leaves the gimp locked in his cupboard for a nice, long while...:p
You are right though, for a whole range of reasons I think it may not be a working environment that suits many escorts. I think some are uncertain whether the boards should be used as an advertising tool or the exact opposite ( a place to vent and sound off ) or a combination of both.
I think the boards have their own character, and, as far as I can see, it works (but then I am still recuperating from a trial by ordeal and headbenders on a notoriously savage Irish board I will not name, so my perspective might be distorted).
Certainly, I know that many escorts feel intimidated and are afraid to post for fear of being jumped on by the Gestapo from amongst their own number
Probably a side effect of PTSD from reading the above board! :D
and this is a shame and others I feel have a love/hate relationship with the 'normalising' effect of the boards and pm system.Many I think really couldnt be bothered inter- acting with other members but would just prefer to use it as another method of arranging a booking. There was one particular escort I remember who posted on a UK board who was quite open about her wish to have as little inter-action as possible with 'punters' at all. Apparently though, she was really lovely on a booking !!
It's not everybody's cup of tea.!
People are people and different. In the same way sex workers have different ways of handling the psychological demands. No matter how positive you may be about your work, like anyone in interpersonal services (including, but not limited to, psychoanalysis) you cannot function properly without detachment, and people have different ways of detaching.
I only feel comfortable posting here because you are somebody else's clients, and besides, this is about political, not personal issues.
Sorry Ksteve, but that is pure daft...like saying that, in lieu of hard information, we should all assume from the latest Tombola Bingo ads that bingo encourages people into outdoor activities.
There was nothing, whatsoever, conclusive about any of that footage, it was literally meaningless footage with a clever voice over...I forget that I actually have a certain amount of media studies under my belt, but it CANNOT only be me who sees this? I absolutely refuse to pretend it was conclusive, when I know it was not, just to ensure people keep seeing me as a nice person.
There may be trafficking victims in Ireland, in dire need of real help but I am fairly certain none of them appeared on Primetime, much less TV3 - which is a *GOOD* thing, because if they had their lives might well be in serious danger or even, just plain *over* as a result of that, grossly irresponsible, readily identifiable, footage.
I dont remember saying the Primetime programme provided 'conclusive ' evidence at all but many pro-prostitution members here , both guys and escorts, found the footage very persuasive of trafficking. see--- https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/threads/84703-Welcome-RTE-Viewers?highlight=rte+primetime
In that case, you can only therefore imagine how it was perceived by the general public and as I said , public perception is crucial.
I only feel comfortable posting here because you are somebody else's clients, and besides, this is about political, not personal issues.
To be fair, some of the ladies here seem well prepared to air their true views, on matters both political, personal and matters relating to work and they have to be adimired for that.:)
LaBelleThatcher
17-03-12, 17:07
To be fair, some of the ladies here seem well prepared to air their true views, on matters both political, personal and matters relating to work and they have to be adimired for that.:)
Which only goes to reinforce my point that we are all *shock* :eek: - *horror* :eek: totally different people with totally different ways of seeing things, reacting to things, feeling about things and dealing with things...
Which also shows just how preposterous the homogenous attributions of the rescue industry really are...
We COULD NOT POSSIBLY all feel in such similar ways or have such similar needs.
LaBelleThatcher
17-03-12, 17:17
I dont remember saying the Primetime programme provided 'conclusive ' evidence at all but many pro-prostitution members here , both guys and escorts, found the footage very persuasive of trafficking. see--- https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/threads/84703-Welcome-RTE-Viewers?highlight=rte+primetime
In that case, you can only therefore imagine how it was perceived by the general public and as I said , public perception is crucial.
...and as long as that flawed public perception continues to be reinforced from within the sex industry it will just get worse.
Samlad may be about to crown me (and not in a nice way :() for this but it probably is time for the sex industry to pool (fairly considerable) resources and see if they cannot contribute to identifying and handing up some real traffickers...which is pretty hard to feel enthusiastic about when you are criminalised, villified and exiled, but still, it does seem the right best way to go.
But it cannot be done out in the open with regular progress reports because if there are real, hardcore traffickers out there they are NOT nice people.
The last witchhunt I recall like this was over "snuff movies" in the 80s...apparently they were reaching such epidemic proportions that international missing persons statistics were struggling to keep up!
In the 90s we copped ourselves on and realised it was all so much Urban legend...and found better things to do with our time...
Then in the noughties we began to find out that while the witchhunt in the 80s had us looking in all the wrong places for an epidemic of overactive imaginations, elsewhere, a few, truly disgusting, and evil, people had been literally getting away with murder all along...
Which only goes to reinforce my point that we are all *shock* :eek: - *horror* :eek: totally different people with totally different ways of seeing things, reacting to things, feeling about things and dealing with things...
Which also shows just how preposterous the homogenous attributions of the rescue industry really are...
We COULD NOT POSSIBLY all feel in such similar ways or have such similar needs.
So, maybe therefore there are a lot more escorts satisfied with their choice of work then perhaps originally thought? :D
...and as long as that flawed public perception continues to be reinforced from within the sex industry it will just get worse.
Amen to that .
Samlad may be about to crown me (and not in a nice way :() for this but it probably is time for the sex industry to pool (fairly considerable) resources and see if they cannot contribute to identifying and handing up some real traffickers...which is pretty hard to feel enthusiastic about when you are criminalised, villified and exiled, but still, it does seem the right best way to go.
Given your confidence that E-I are ready to move 'heaven and earth' to sort this problem out, perhaps your fears are somwhat misplaced Eileen.:)
LaBelleThatcher
17-03-12, 18:53
So, maybe therefore there are a lot more escorts satisfied with their choice of work then perhaps originally thought? :D
I will state one thing that has occurred to me during this discussion...that among the people I knew there was a lot of peer pressure to claim that you hated sex work...if you did not claim to hate it, you were socially frowned upon by other sex workers.
Now I really did hate it, but there are a lot of reasons personal to me, that do not just apply to sex work, for that, as may well also be true for others.
There is also the part that cultural pressure and shame, outside the sex industry, has to play in the equation, which varies with the individual.
You would really have to ask individuals how they feel, but remove various social pressures and my best guess would be that a significant proportion of sex workers, just like anyone else, do not mind the work and make the best of the advantages while zoning out the downside.
However, may I draw your attention to my favourite ingenuous quote from the rescue industry (from the "Interdisciplinary Report on Prostitution in Ireland 2007" that is possibly the foundation of the current nonsense):
"Jõe-Cannon (2006) argues that:
Studies show that most women in prostitution did not choose prostitution among a range of options, such as medicine, law, teaching, nursing or politics."
No sh*t Sherlock? :D:rolleyes::D
That is so true that it is profoundly silly to state it.
I will state one thing that has occurred to me during this discussion...that among the people I knew there was a lot of peer pressure to claim that you hated sex work...if you did not claim to hate it, you were socially frowned upon by other sex workers.
Now I really did hate it, but there are a lot of reasons personal to me, that do not just apply to sex work, for that, as may well also be true for others.
There is also the part that cultural pressure and shame, outside the sex industry, has to play in the equation, which varies with the individual.
You would really have to ask individuals how they feel, but remove various social pressures and my best guess would be that a significant proportion of sex workers, just like anyone else, do not mind the work and make the best of the advantages while zoning out the downside.
However, may I draw your attention to my favourite ingenuous quote from the rescue industry (from the "Interdisciplinary Report on Prostitution in Ireland 2007" that is possibly the foundation of the current nonsense):
"Jõe-Cannon (2006) argues that:
Studies show that most women in prostitution did not choose prostitution among a range of options, such as medicine, law, teaching, nursing or politics."
No sh*t Sherlock? :D:rolleyes::D
That is so true that it is profoundly silly to state it.
Put in front of such choice, I choose prostitution over nursing any time. I have 2 friends who chose nursing. I do not understand their decision but I respect it. In my eyes it's dealing with the same impotent shitty asses, except I earn in two hours what they earn in a month.:D
LaBelleThatcher
17-03-12, 20:45
Put in front of such choice, I choose prostitution over nursing any time. I have 2 friends who chose nursing. I do not understand their decision but I respect it. In my eyes it's dealing with the same impotent shitty asses, except I earn in two hours what they earn in a month.:D
Isn't their collective notion of female aspirations "medicine, law, teaching, nursing or politics" absolutely precious, but?
I guess all the OTHER little girls who always wanted to be hairdressers, models, air hostesses, dress designers actresses and pop princesses deserve to be in the sex industry from a fanatical feminist perspective? :D
Put in front of such choice, I choose prostitution over nursing any time. I have 2 friends who chose nursing. I do not understand their decision but I respect it. In my eyes it's dealing with the same impotent shitty asses, except I earn in two hours what they earn in a month.:D
That probably gives the moralist crowd more ammunition since it's not what you earn, it's how you earn it in their eyes. Hence why sex workers must be "rescued" and why sex work must be eradicated, because it doesn't conform to the norms which have been set in society - it's more socially acceptable to be a nurse.
Isn't their collective notion of female aspirations "medicine, law, teaching, nursing or politics" absolutely precious, but?
I guess all the OTHER little girls who always wanted to be hairdressers, models, air hostesses, dress designers actresses and pop princesses deserve to be in the sex industry from a fanatical feminist perspective? :D
Well, I think it's progress that they now accept that young women have the opportunity to go into those areas rather than stay in the kitchen! Which was the view up to two decades ago.
It's a cliche, but what are lawyers and politicians except a kind of prostitute who doesn't have to take their clothes off to make their money. Plus if there were no escorts, there'd be no one to spank them senseless behind closed doors, which is so real a stereotype, even in private, I don't think it's a stereotype anymore - I think it's the truth!
Isn't their collective notion of female aspirations "medicine, law, teaching, nursing or politics" absolutely precious, but?
I guess all the OTHER little girls who always wanted to be hairdressers, models, air hostesses, dress designers actresses and pop princesses deserve to be in the sex industry from a fanatical feminist perspective? :D
Well, it is a funny notion especially regarding the vocations he's naming. However there is something about it as in my case if I had the choice at the incriminating age when people choose their vocation, I would probably chose going to uni over sex-work (or I might do both). Regardless of that, I'm somewhat glad now, that I didn't have those options back then as thanks to that i have discovered other options, that I probably wouldnt come accross if my career was to take a more mainstream direction.
That probably gives the moralist crowd more ammunition since it's not what you earn, it's how you earn it in their eyes. Hence why sex workers must be "rescued" and why sex work must be eradicated, because it doesn't conform to the norms which have been set in society - it's more socially acceptable to be a nurse.
Well, I think it's progress that they now accept that young women have the opportunity to go into those areas rather than stay in the kitchen! Which was the view up to two decades ago.
It's a cliche, but what are lawyers and politicians except a kind of prostitute who doesn't have to take their clothes off to make their money. Plus if there were no escorts, there'd be no one to spank them senseless behind closed doors, which is so real a stereotype, even in private, I don't think it's a stereotype anymore - I think it's the truth!
Unfortunately, I know for sure that I wouldnt be able to do any of these socially acceptable jobs. They're simply not acceptable for me.
LaBelleThatcher
17-03-12, 21:24
Well, it is a funny notion especially regarding the vocations he's naming.
You have missed the punchline here is ilvi jõe-cannon, originator of such an innovative take on female aspirations:
http://www.amcham.ee/failid/Ilvi_Joe_Cannon.jpg
The principle of *should know better* seems to apply (or perhaps not?)? :D
However there is something about it as in my case if I had the choice at the incriminating age when people choose their vocation, I would probably chose going to uni over sex-work (or I might do both). Regardless of that, I'm somewhat glad now, that I didn't have those options back then as thanks to that i have discovered other options, that I probably wouldnt come accross if my career was to take a more mainstream direction.
You said it Ana...we all play the hand we are dealt, and that is seldom, if ever a "full house" for everyone. It ably demonstrates how very far the authors of this kind of ideology are removed from the reality of most of us (people, not just sex workers!) have to live.
There is NO ideology that will obtain anything like ideal circumstances for every young woman, or man...now or ever...
LaBelleThatcher
17-03-12, 21:27
That probably gives the moralist crowd more ammunition since it's not what you earn, it's how you earn it in their eyes. Hence why sex workers must be "rescued" and why sex work must be eradicated, because it doesn't conform to the norms which have been set in society - it's more socially acceptable to be a nurse.
But only as long as you do not whore on weekends!
Unfortunately, I know for sure that I wouldnt be able to do any of these socially acceptable jobs. They're simply not acceptable for me.
I was thinking the same thing with regard to your job, I don't think I'd be able for it! :D I suppose it's a case of different horses for courses. However, I do accept that some people could have the strength of personality for it, but I know that I wouldn't, I'd barely have the personality to go and see an escort.
The normalising effect of Boards has definitely made me a better client than I otherwise would have been. I am far more clued into things that are both good for me but more importantly, are good for the escorts ie, hygiene, gum check ups, time keeping, cancellations, etc, the list is endless.I think the Boards can only be hugely beneficial to the escorts.
Put in front of such choice, I choose prostitution over nursing any time. I have 2 friends who chose nursing. I do not understand their decision but I respect it. In my eyes it's dealing with the same impotent shitty asses, except I earn in two hours what they earn in a month.:D
Anna, I think you made the right decision to stay well clear of nursing-- I dont think it was for you somehow ! :D