View Full Version : Trafficking.
Trafficking, this is a serious and emotive term, but just
saying it a few times is not evidence of how common it is.
The general public don't visit this site or go and meet escorts
so they will believe what is told to them, regardless of the truth
or motives of the agency projecting that view.
In The Journal poll thread, i read a poster to complain that women
were forced to see random, deficient men?
Watch the video below, voice tone, body language leads me
to question the real motives of the TORL campaign. Toward the
end the woman who should be concerned with immigrants says
"this is what we feel fuels sex trafficking."
YouTube - Human Trafficking in Ireland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K52GggyNxmw)
but trafficking does exist.
I can't bear to read that wall of text, sorry.
over 200 women were rescued last year from the very places you doubt exist.
Grow up, trafficking is a real and lasting problem. It IS slavery. it DOES exist, it seems like you are the one who doesn't want to see the truth...
I agree with Mioux that sex trafficking does exist and agree that it is an abomination for this to be allowed to happen, but i feel after reading so many articles that have been written recently that TORL are trying to make out that it is only very few who are doing the job of there own will, they were both asked(gillian and gillian) if they had any experience in this area, NO THEY DON'T, running "studies" of the sex industry does not give any one experience enough to say whether people have been trafficked or not.
A few years ago i ran a study looking at poverty in the town ships in Capetown and came up with 80% were living in poverty i found this disturbing and went over and stayed in a township called Kyleisha in a shanty house that is recognized as the smallest hotel in the world, having lived there for a period of three months, as that is all my tourist visa would let me do, i found that was totally wrong. The majority of these people have good jobs and are well paid, but because this is where they have always lived it is home to them and they don't want to leave, some of course are still living in poverty but that is through the aids epidemic out there and through parents of young children dying through this awful disease. It turned out that just under 40% were living hand to mouth. I know this is still high but it was much less than my original study proved.
Now my thought is if these people want to run studies of the sex industry they should enter it, work if only for a few weeks to see that we aren't all trafficked and the majority of men we see are gentlemen, its fine for an outsider to have views but to have a totally closed mind as to what it is about just means these people are still stuck in the 19th century.
My opinion is that both sides have a blinkered view of each other.
I believe trafficking/coercion is still a genuine problem in this country, more than others might like to think. I also firmly believe there is a legitimate and relatively safe way to work in this industry as is practiced by many independent escorts on this site.
As a client I also believe it is my right to be free to pay for sex and companionship with a woman who is working as a sex worker of her own free will.
That is where I stand and I have some sympathy with both sides of this debate.
Is there any chance that representatives of both TORL and TOBL could meet and talk? It may soften each others opinion on the other. Even if this happened to a small degree, I believe it would benefit the debate greatly.
i kind of think the only people entitled to an opinion on this are escorts and former escorts, not clients.
i kind of think the only people entitled to an opinion on this are escorts and former escorts, not clients.
That is a very blinkered view. There are 2 sides to every business transaction.
And you have no right to tell me what opinions I'm entitled to or not.
why are you taking me mere opinions so personally. believe it or not, i was not aiming my last comment at you.
clients don't know the HALF of what an actual escorting life is like. they are not the ones who can say what is right or wrong about escorting, because only escorts know for themselves, that why men won't get listened to in this campaign!
give me a break.
its like saying, well i go to the dentist, so i have a right in dictating what dentists should or should not do, or something to that affect.
That's nonsense. Most industries and services work better when the consumer has a voice.
And it may have escaped your notice, but the new proposed legislative model is based on prosecuting the client. So as a currently very active participant in this business, who wishes to see the business run legitimately, cleanly and safely for all involved, forgive me having an opinion.
Anyway, this is no place for a undignified bunfight, so let's leave it at that.
i wasn't 'fighting' with you., i wasn't even speaking to you.
what's a bunfight?
nothing about the new legislation has escaped my notice but thanks for the patronising tone
i wasn't 'fighting' with you., i wasn't even speaking to you.
what's a bunfight?
nothing about the new legislation has escaped my notice but thanks for the patronising tone
Lads c'mon kiss and make up. Ye both have valid points of view argueing the otehr side of the coin
yeah this is a bit weird.
i wasn't 'arguing' any particular point of view or 'fighting' with anyone,
i think he kind of decided to add to what i was saying and got defensive.
yeah this is a bit weird.
i wasn't 'arguing' any particular point of view or 'fighting' with anyone,
i think he kind of decided to add to what i was saying and got defensive.
Te are both talking about different sides of the same coin
Ye both have very valid pionts but from your own point of view
Unfortunatly neither of ye will probably agree on each others points which is fair enough
Just there is no need to fall out over it
i wasn't arguing any point of view to do with legal stuff at all. or anything really. i just made a passing comment and he decided to pick a fight. about nothing. and we're not friends so there won't be any falling out.
there was a reason i left this website!
i wasn't arguing any point of view to do with legal stuff at all. or anything really. i just made a passing comment and he decided to pick a fight. about nothing. and we're not friends so there won't be any falling out.
there was a reason i left this website!
Ok fair enough, Argue all you want
Thats good just keep it civil is all Im asking
how was i not keeping it civil?
and for the third time, i wasn't and had no intentions on 'arguing'.
you're making this into some sort of weird issue.
how was i not keeping it civil?
and for the third time, i wasn't and had no intentions on 'arguing'.
you're making this into some sort of weird issue.
I apologise if I have gotten this wrong
Carry on
Mioux, I'm sure we are on the same side here. You just rubbed me up the wrong way with a comment you made straight after my first post. If I misinterpreted it, I apologize.
So...
X
Goodnight
Trafficking, this is a serious and emotive term, but just
saying it a few times is not evidence of how common it is.
The general public don't visit this site or go and meet escorts
so they will believe what is told to them, regardless of the truth
or motives of the agency projecting that view.
In The Journal poll thread, i read a poster to complain that women
were forced to see random, deficient men?
Watch the video below, voice tone, body language leads me
to question the real motives of the TORL campaign. Toward the
end the woman who should be concerned with immigrants says
"this is what we feel fuels sex trafficking."
YouTube - Human Trafficking in Ireland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K52GggyNxmw)
It is insane, though not surprising, that we now have to fight for basic rights and legal protection of people working in the sex industry in this country. However given that we have this fight on our hands it's imperative that we don't bloody lose it!
One area where we, the turn off the blue light side of the "debate," are at risk of tripping ourselves up is trying to pretend that everything is rosy in the garden and that all we need is for independent escorts to be free to operate with the full protection of the law. There is more to it than that. There are evil bastards exploiting poor people, there always have been, and there always will be.
Trafficking is a problem, but it is classic dogmatic ultra-rightwing conservative knee-jerk self-promoting sanctimonious catholic propoganda to claim that *every* escort in Ireland is a victim of trafficking. Sadly, as the OP points out, the average Joe will buy this bullshit as there appear to be a terrifying number of people who actually believe what they read in the media. Tragic but true.
As ever, this mess is complex. It is not black & white. There are for example independent workers here who were in the past trafficked and have managed to work their way out of the situation and get to a point where they are operating on their own and making a decent living. The proposed laws will undo all the hard and dangerous work that such good people have done to improve their lives.
The real problem with "Trafficking" as a concept is that it is a media label -- a tabloid byword for all that is grotty & miserable & guaranteed to sell newspapers. We will have a hell of a time fighting public perception (or rather public misconceptions) as it is without making matters worse for ourselves by trying to deny the real problems.
If we truly want the Turn off the blue light campaign to succeed we must be clear, coherent, articulate, and mature in our debate. Our stance must be informed and honest. If we come across as a rabble of kinksters just trying to maintain the status quo, we will written off as sexual degenerates being used as pawns of the organised crime vested interests who "control" the sex industry in Ireland. That would be a disaster for all of us.
no, the real problem with trafficking is that is exists. very much so.
no, the real problem with trafficking is that is exists. very much so.
Exactly yes. You are entirely right. The very problem with the TOTRL campaign is that it does not give centre stage to the most informed voice in this issue: the escorts who are actively working in Ireland. The reason they do not to have the input of active escorts is that it does not suit their objectives.
Trafficking is abhorrent and sickening. We on the TOTBL side need to take the lead in the anti-trafficking campaign, which is what is really needed here.
With regards to trafficking I dont know too much on the subject, as such I am always particularly interested in an escort's opinion over others. I figure they are bound to have a better idea.
With regards to trafficking I dont know too much on the subject, as such I am always particularly interested in an escort's opinion over others. I figure they are bound to have a better idea.
Of course it is the escorts that should inform us all on this, inform the entire debate as they are the only ones who really know - not these moral guardians who are once again telling us what to think & how we may live.
i kind of think the only people entitled to an opinion on this are escorts and former escorts, not clients.
Actually the customer is just as entitled to an opinion as the supplier if not more
'..if not more'....
God loves a trier
'..if not more'....
God loves a trier
and you do try, bless you
I find myself agreeing with Mioux here but escorts seem to be remaining silent in this thread... ultimately, they have to lead the argument in this debate or it will just be seen as a bunch of horny men trying to keep things the way they are.
I find myself agreeing with Mioux here but escorts seem to be remaining silent in this thread... ultimately, they have to lead the argument in this debate or it will just be seen as a bunch of horny men trying to keep things the way they are.
Can I just remind you of Mioux's statement/point...
"i kind of think the only people entitled to an opinion on this are escorts and former escorts, not clients."
This is not the late late show or a radio interview. It's a thread on the TOTBL forum, which was set up for all EI contributors to debate and rally against a campaign to change the current legislation, to prosecute clients ( that's me and a lot of you) for paying for sex, something that has no impact on retired escorts.
My point (and please take the time to read it if you are going to reply to this) never suggested that clients decide how the industry is run, but that if both TOBL and TORL sat down and talked, both sides might take a less blinkered view of each other and not necessarily just keep the status quo but have a healthier debate on how to deal with trafficking.
However, Mioux's opinion is that I ( clients in general, not me personally I accept) am not entitled to an opinion, and she's welcome to share that opinion on this thread.
I think the problem is that the TORL group are not interested in the other side of the story. They are not in the least bit interested in hearing from escorts. I know that an escort from this forum tried emailing them but got absolutely stone walled. The TORL are incapable of believing that any woman can actually choose of her own free will to be an escort. To them trafficking and escorting are one and the same thing. Given that the religious order that backs is responsible for serious abuses of women in the past (Magdalene sisters) - i'm not surprised at their stance.
I think the problem is that the TORL group are not interested in the other side of the story. They are not in the least bit interested in hearing from escorts. I know that an escort from this forum tried emailing them but got absolutely stone walled. The TORL are incapable of believing that any woman can actually choose of her own free will to be an escort. To them trafficking and escorting are one and the same thing. Given that the religious order that backs is responsible for serious abuses of women in the past (Magdalene sisters) - i'm not surprised at their stance.
Get both sides of Vincent Brown and see what happens.
Get Mick Wallace on boards too, Im sure he would be interested lol
There's a report in the news of the world today about some 35 yr old Romanian guy who is being charged with trafficking 10 Romanian girls who worked in brothels in limerick, Galway and Dublin.
Claims the girls were told their families would be targeted if they didn't work for him.
I can't find a link anywhere to the story I'm afraid.
Well, escorts have stepped up for themselves and created the TOBL committee where lots of work is being done to fight TORL.
I don't see why some punters who feel so strongly about being primarily affected with the existence of TORL won't do the same.
It would certainly help to open the public eyes and to show that escorts and clients alike are a part (and not a small one) of Irish society.
The problem here I think is that for escorts it is livelyhood where for clients its only fun and thus they dont want to get seriously involved in any hassle.
I fully appreciate any clients opinion on this matter but until they will take things into their hands and actually start doing something about it, then thats all they gonna have unfortunately.
As for "we have families and jobs and need privacy" type of excuses, well escorts do too. They have lives outside escorting including other jobs, carriers and family life.
Amy Alison
05-05-11, 12:33
There's a report in the news of the world today about some 35 yr old Romanian guy who is being charged with trafficking 10 Romanian girls who worked in brothels in limerick, Galway and Dublin.
Claims the girls were told their families would be targeted if they didn't work for him.
I can't find a link anywhere to the story I'm afraid.
Anybody has a link for this please ?
Quite a few of us actually kicked this debate off on this site before any escorts said anything about it and TOBL was formed. We've had letters published in newspapers and have been active on various websites.
I was not aware TOBL was escort-only membership. I think its a mistake if that is the case. And it's not just a bit of fun for clients. It's a lifestyle and an important part of a lot of our lives.
As for not exposing ourselves to the public, I cannot afford to do that.
I haven't noticed any escorts names or pictures anywhere either, understandably enough.
I'm surprised at the attitude of Mioux ( who thinks punters have no right to an opinion ) and to some degree Anna and TOBL if it's considered an escort only group.
I think quite a few punters have shown an ability to contribute to this topic in an intelligent fashion.
But there you go. Good luck with the campaigning !
rubberlover
06-05-11, 15:57
As I have always said trafficking it is wrong and equally the best people to talk about it are the escorts. As a client I try to ensure that any escort I meet is independent and working freely and importantly treat them with respect. Just my tuppence hapenny worth.
and you do try, bless you
and people wonder why girls don't say much on this website.
I was not aware TOBL was escort-only membership. I think its a mistake if that is the case. And it's not just a bit of fun for clients. It's a lifestyle and an important part of a lot of our lives.
To clarify the Constitution sets out that we are led by sex workers. Membership is open to all individuals and organisations who support our objectives, but only those working in the sex industry are voting members. All Officers of our Committee are sex workers. Our Members, Friends of TOBL and Admin Support are both sex workers and non sex workers.
Fine. Still think it's a mistake.
Fine. Still think it's a mistake.
We are inviting everyone including clients to be part of TOBL and get involved in debate, discussions, helping out. We are simply saying it should be sex workers only with voting power, so TOBL is sex worker led. We don't think that is a mistake, we think that is the right way, that a campaign for sex workers' rights should be led by sex workers, not clients or any other group in society.
Also think about our structure, if we said every member could vote, Ruhama could have 100 people join tomorrow and out vote all the sex workers and TOBL would be Ruhama II. It would make no sense to allow everyone to vote.
Fine, I think it's good that TOBL exists.
It's just I thought the thrust of TORL's campaign is to support legislation to prosecute clients, not escorts.
Our rights, my right to freedom of choice is not only affected, it will be made illegal. And I can't really just move to some other country and continue visiting escorts. How many of your voting members can just move on to some other country to carry on their business?
Your fear that Ruhama could get spies in the camp to out vote you could be easily avoided with a vetting/reference process.
Anyway, your constitution is what it is.
So I'm signing off from this thread. I don't wish to debate this any longer. Seems I'm on a solo run anyway.
I hope you have a good team who can fight the good fight for all of us affected.
Good luck.
Bruno, I don't think this fight is more about clients' rights than it is sex workers' rights. Yes TORL want clients criminalised, but the result of that law coming in would be the industry driven much more underground. As a client, there is a small chance you could be prosecuted for buying sex, but, for sex workers, it would mean a much more dangerous working environment. Think about that.
I know. Just saying it affects us all.
Good luck with it and if there's anything I can do, let me know.