View Full Version : Welcome to the Turn Off The Blue Light forum!
Full details of the campaign to be announced here shortly.
Full details of the campaign to be announced here shortly.
Just let us know what we can do to help Pat.
CG
Thanks Patricia and Managers and Mods for creating this separate section for the "Turn off the blue lights campaign".
It was getting lost in the General chat section.
Also thanks for bringing all the relevant threads here.
Let us know what you want us to do once you've decided on your strategy.
Ditto. I got a letter published in the metro so far, so if there's anywhere else u want me to unleash my literary genius, let me know :-)
any help i can give let me know
I will attend public debates about the issue that I feel we must hold
I would advise people to write a letter to the times and local wannabe TDs particular FG an Labour
Stating why the law in sweden/norway is flawed
We wont win the debate here on this site
This thread is temporarly locked due to influx of spam
Will reopen when a mod or manager comes online
thehighwayman
16-02-11, 10:29
Thread re-opened.
This is a copy of what was published in the metro herald.
I'm just posting it here to share ideas on we should be saying....
I am writing to say I fully support stopping all forms of sex trafficking and exploitation.
*
However, there is a healthy independent escort business operating in Ireland today which is largely free of these criminals.* To criminalise the people who avail of these services, most again being decent people, perhaps with different sexual mores to some, will drive this independent business underground, and once again into the arms of the pimps and organised criminals.
*
This will cause more harm than good in my opinion.* The state should use the legislation available to it to tackle the real criminals and if that is not strong enough, i would certainly support some new legislation that is.* However the current proposals are dangerous and require more creative thinking.
*
Yours sincerely,
*
An ordinary Joe Soap
*
The Hobbyist
16-02-11, 12:08
This is a copy of what was published in the metro herald.
I'm just posting it here to share ideas on we should be saying....
I am writing to say I fully support stopping all forms of sex trafficking and exploitation.
*
However, there is a healthy independent escort business operating in Ireland today which is largely free of these criminals.* To criminalise the people who avail of these services, most again being decent people, perhaps with different sexual mores to some, will drive this independent business underground, and once again into the arms of the pimps and organised criminals.
*
This will cause more harm than good in my opinion.* The state should use the legislation available to it to tackle the real criminals and if that is not strong enough, i would certainly support some new legislation that is.* However the current proposals are dangerous and require more creative thinking.
*
Yours sincerely,
*
An ordinary Joe Soap
*
Folks,
I think everyone needs to get away from the language of "escorts providing services" and put more focus on "different sexual mores". Every adult should be free to engage in whatever activity they want with another (perhaps more than one) consenting adult. What takes place between consenting adults in the privacy of a bedroom, hotel room, etc is not a matter for the State or its citizens.
The battle with the "Turn off the Red Light" campaign is going to be about perception. I really think that the EI campaign should be about the State getting out of the business of regulating what consenting adults do in their bedrooms.
For example, there was a time that criminal conversation existed in tort law which allowed for a party to a marriage to seek compensation for said party's injury arising from adultery. This law was on the Irish statute books until 1976!!! Basically the law was this:
The tort of criminal conversation seeks damages for the act of sexual intercourse outside marriage, between the spouse and a third party. Each act of adultery can give rise to a separate claim for criminal conversation.
Prior to 1976, all the married men and women on this board could have been ordered to compensate a spouse who sued for damages due to adultery. Do we want to see a return to this sort of thing?
The danger is once the State starts to legislate in the area of whether one can pay for sexual activity, you may see a law that allows for a spouse to seek damages for the other spouse having had sex with an escort. You may see a law that names and shames those who pay for sexual activity. The possibilities are endless.
If you craft your arguments in this way; you will find that people start to think differently.
Regards.
Just let us know what we can do to help Pat.
CG
http://home.actlab.utexas.edu/~nick/tongue%20long.png
Jack in the Box
17-02-11, 00:27
Some great ideas were mentioned on this thread. Another thing that can be done is for us to email not alone TD's but councillors as well. The bcc (blind copy) box can be used to email loads of them at the same time. I intend as well putting in that link from the sex workers support organisation in Scotland which outlined 33 reasons not to crimalise clients:
33 Reasons Why the Clients of Sex Workers Should Not Be Criminalised (http://www.scot-pep.org.uk/33reasons.html)
This is well worth reading.
Escorts should act in addition. They will be more difficult to dismiss by people.
We should try and get more users to like the Turn off the blue light campaign on Facebook. It would be no harm to search for similar minded people on the site and ask them to join or like the campaign.
Folks,
I think everyone needs to get away from the language of "escorts providing services" and put more focus on "different sexual mores". Every adult should be free to engage in whatever activity they want with another (perhaps more than one) consenting adult. What takes place between consenting adults in the privacy of a bedroom, hotel room, etc is not a matter for the State or its citizens.
The battle with the "Turn off the Red Light" campaign is going to be about perception. I really think that the EI campaign should be about the State getting out of the business of regulating what consenting adults do in their bedrooms.
I think The Hobbyist has identified the only way we can win this debate. I've been sratching my head trying to think how to combat this prior to the above comments.
The general view from what I've been reading is that the majority of people out there don't care about the escorting industry and wouldn't be bothered to see it go. However, they would go about their business and happily ignore the industry if it weren't for the "Turn off the red light" campaign.
The strength of the "Turn off the Red light" campaign is that they keep using the phrase 'exploitation of women and children'. Something that would strike a chord in anyone. Of course at the heart of the matter they are just biggoted moralists using the excuse of trafficking as a means to close down the escorting industry. They are quite open about their intentions of closing down the escorting industry claiming that any and every escort is being exploited and couldn't possible have under taken the decison to enter the industry of their own free will.
We the punters on the other hand are labelled as predators and equated to sex offenders. I haven't fully read the proposed legislation but I think one of the suggestions is that all convicted punters be put on the sex offenders register!!
We are therefore on the back foot right from the start of the debate.
However, I think the Hobbyist is right. We need to change the perception of what the campaign is about. Terms like "sex industry" generally don't go down well. Pointing out that it is going to be state control of sexual activity between consenting adults may strike a chord out there. Also it should be suggested that "turn off the red light " campaign are religious backed, ultra right wingers. No one loves that crowd at the moment. We should pose the question - do we want to return to "church control" of sex?? All these things may actually open the eyes of the general public and create some antagonism to the red light campaign. (At least I hope it does).
On a separate prong of attack - escorts then should defend their right to personal lifestyle choice and attack the red light campaign on the grounds of perpetuating trafficking, increasing the control of organised crime and making things far more dangerous for women in the industry. (I know I said above that we should shy away from the 'sex industry' terminology - but I think this is a separate argument specifically driven by escorts. Escorts may get some sympathy from womens groups (not much but definitely a whole lot more than us punters!!)
This is a copy of what was published in the metro herald.
I'm just posting it here to share ideas on we should be saying....
I am writing to say I fully support stopping all forms of sex trafficking and exploitation.
*
However, there is a healthy independent escort business operating in Ireland today which is largely free of these criminals.* To criminalise the people who avail of these services, most again being decent people, perhaps with different sexual mores to some, will drive this independent business underground, and once again into the arms of the pimps and organised criminals.
*
This will cause more harm than good in my opinion.* The state should use the legislation available to it to tackle the real criminals and if that is not strong enough, i would certainly support some new legislation that is.* However the current proposals are dangerous and require more creative thinking.
*
Yours sincerely,
*
An ordinary Joe Soap
*
Excellent letter Bruno. Short and succinct and to the point.
excellent post morpheus
but how are we going to get our message out. As I said is talking to ourselves online isnt going to do much good. We need to take action. I have written letters to the Irish Times but they havn't published them.
I reckon we have two months from start of new dáil to stop this and I reckon we are either going to see this law passed or for the industry to be legalised
PSanyone else notice labour going down in the polls since Pat came out in support of this
Excellent letter Bruno. Short and succinct and to the point.
Thanks. It looks like we are gathering a lot of info here which is great.
I do think a letter to a newspaper needs to be short as the column widths tend to be narrow.
The Hobbyist and yourself and others are all making very good points which I'm taking on board for further letters to other papers and tweets to radio, tv and news sites.
Just wondering if it is better to hold fire until after the election. I dont think this is an election topic and might get lost.
I am very interested in feedback on this.
Thanks. It looks like we are gathering a lot of info here which is great.
I do think a letter to a newspaper needs to be short as the column widths tend to be narrow.
The Hobbyist and yourself and others are all making very good points which I'm taking on board for further letters to other papers and tweets to radio, tv and news sites.
Just wondering if it is better to hold fire until after the election. I dont think this is an election topic and might get lost.
I am very interested in feedback on this.
I was wondering that too Bruno. Given that the main focus of the election is going to be the economy/jobs/bank & sovereign debt, this could get lost in it all.
Plus it depends who's in government.
Labour have already promised to bring in this legislation! Well you know who I'm not voting for.
I think the main thrust of the campaign should probably be slightly after the new govt has settled in, but there should still be letters from our camp addressing this on an on-going basis all the time.
We are at a disadvantage in that the "Turn off the red light campaign" is very well organised and has been gaining momentum for some time. (My understanding is that they have EU funding through the Immigration council!!!)
Jack in the Box
18-02-11, 00:29
Kevin Myers is a journalist sympathetic to our cause. Eillis O'Hanlon might be another one as well. She did a great article on the adult industry in the 2000's. I'm not sure if anybody here remembers it though. There must be other journalists that will take up our cause as well.
It would be ideal to have a few spokespersons for ourselves who would be well able to handle radio presenters etc in the media and who would not be wary of making themselves public. We could see if anybody in the UK or further afield would be willing to do this as this country is small and can be close knit. I'd be willing to donate towards a funding pool for this to happen. It would be €20 well spent. We could email some of the bigger sex workers organisations in other countires and also the people who make adult entertainment. It would be in their interest that this legislation doesn't spread from one county to another like a cancer.
Also as was mentioned the tone of the campaign could focus more on promoting civil liberties rather than mention words that might alienate certain quarters.
This is an issue of personal freedom. It needs to be opposed as an issue of personal freedom & we should hint that it could be the thin end of a wedge. We all want less state intervention, not more. Why should we allow our government into our bedrooms ?. I totally agree that any mention of sex, sex workers etc is inadvisable. We have to accept that, to many of the repressed Irish, sex workers are "common prostitutes" & clients are perverted & immoral.
This has to be seen as trying to regulate intimate, private activity between a man & woman. We need to totally minimise the financial aspect.
I think Tuppy Owens makes one overwhelmingly valid point on that website Jack in the Box linked: it is an exceptionally sexist assumption to assume that the ladies of negotiable virtue are all oppressed, exploited, borderline-enslaved maidens in distress. This legislative war robs them of the ability to earn a living with their physical gifts and practiced artifice, attacking a predominantly female profession. Men are not only allowed, but encouraged into pursuits like sumo and boxing, where they are pressured from a young age to strip down and get physical for money, but apparently that's OK because people enjoy watching. It's a laughably draconian assumption that because the act takes place between a man and a woman, the man must be taking advantage.
What I greatly appreciate about this game in particular is the honesty, the ability to use disposable income to sate a desire, without silly machinations of converting it into a dinner or a necklace, or some other societally acceptable trick used to confirm the desire to bed somebody, and I find so very strange that in a world where you have to own sheep to be more than 200 yards away from a vendor supplying condoms, some politician still feels the need to give voice to whatever moral stand people wish to make against sex being recognised as a potential commodity. I am all for protecting people, so if the Government feels the private sector aren't doing it right, hell, let them start up their own service, run it through the HSE: they have the outfits already anyway. Especially in a country where a doctor can legally prescribe Viagra, criminalising sexual activity is farcical, like the RSA starting to sell turbo-chargers on their website.
And can a piece of legislation really be strung together that would declare clients criminals in a way that couldn't be circumvented by bringing some electronic doodad as a gift to the practitioner, with the receipt still in the bag, in case they don't like it?
Politico (http://Www.politico.ie) may be a valuable site for us to post tweets to with links to articles.
I would wait until a couple of weeks after the election personally.
However the torl team are wasting no time...
Politico | Reform needed to end exploitation of women through prostitution and sex trafficking (http://fb.me/HGNuEbX5)
By the way torl also posted a tweet with a link to an article where a married family man in Limerick was charged with soliciting.
Dad went up to garda on street to ask for sex - Courts, National News - Herald.ie (http://fb.me/SahdeHqK)
Do not read if you are of a nervous disposition !
I red that article
The guy is an idiot and deserves the fine
I red that article
The guy is an idiot and deserves the fine
The fine was nothing. It's the exposure that's the killer. And even if he was stupid, it was hardly the crime of the century. Yet there is no-one he knows that doesn't know about what happened and in the repressed society we live in, with its fake sexual mores, he'll have to live with the stigma of what he is perceived to be and the consequences from that.
Could tip a man over the edge if he hasnt the strength of character to deal with it.
how do you use politico
can anyone post an article and comment on articles
How is it run
how do you use politico
can anyone post an article and comment on articles
How is it run
Not sure, will study it better over the weekend. U can tweet it though!
Hi,
Sex Workers Alliance Ireland is mounting its own campaign in relation to this and it would be worth checking out the facebook page and also the website Sex Worker Alliance Ireland - Home (http://www.sexworkersallianceireland.org)
where you will find allies in stopping the further criminalisation of sex work.
SWAI are totally against the exploitation of women and children in any way and see this campaign to criminalise the buyers of sex as a moralistic and ideological campaign rather than one that actually supports women and aims to protect them.
Might be worth checking out when they seem to be on the same page?