View Full Version : Criminalisation of Purchase & "Blue Lights"
I dare not hijack the other thread currently on the go so here's a new one.
I just seem to recall that there have been threads on the topic of this new legislation in Ireland on here in recent weeks/months and there were some opinions floating about that in practice it would have little or no impact due to difficulties associated with policing the new regulations, if enacted.
So what's changed ? Why the campaign ?
I dare not hijack the other thread currently on the go so here's a new one.
I just seem to recall that there have been threads on the topic of this new legislation in Ireland on here in recent weeks/months and there were some opinions floating about that in practice it would have little or no impact due to difficulties associated with policing the new regulations, if enacted.
So what's changed ? Why the campaign ?
I think in the short term if the clients were criminalised it would have a fairly sharp effect,with a considerable drop in buisness
for the ladies as clients would be very scared. But in the longer term a way would be found, but it would definitely change the
way it is operated at the moment,alot more outcalls etc. I guess that the campaign is being run for a few reasons 1/ Its good
advertising ,if picked up by the media it will generate a few lines in the tabloid press, any publicity is good publicity 2/ It would
deff hit the earning potential of the site as in the short term anyway less girls would come, less girls less revenue 3/ It would
make it very difficult for agencies to work here as guys deff wouldnt want to be then going to places with heavy footfall that
would be easy stake out. I suppose what im really saying is its mostly down to the almighty buck, it would be much preffered if the status quo prevailed
as things are, a fine array are on duty.
criminaliation of punters in sweden has had a huge impact; most now are scared to punt at home and they go to other countries like latvia oin booze and sex breaks; the few escorts that do work there charge upwards of the equivalent of 200eur per half hour.......
What is the new legislation? Ive always been of the understanding that independent escorting is pretty much legal here right? Will the new legislation change that? Anyway id guess 99.9999% of politicians wouldnt get behind any campaign in support of completely legal escorts or brothels as the majority of the voting public wouldnt support it imo. Call me cynical but its probably just to generate interest in the website as people surely people must realise that any campaign is gona fail. Maybe in another generation or two when society has developed that bit further and religion has died out even more it would succeed but until then i just couldnt ever imagine the joe duffy crowd and politicians going for it.
criminaliation of punters in sweden has had a huge impact; most now are scared to punt at home and they go to other countries like latvia oin booze and sex breaks; the few escorts that do work there charge upwards of the equivalent of 200eur per half hour.......
The up side for the girls that do work there though is the rate is higher and even though they may not be quite as busy
as other places the better rate means they will earn roughly the same. Another plus to working there is that u have very
few time wasters compared to here as mostly only genuine clients will ring. Once a thing is illegal it can cut out lots of the
messers and finally apparently the clients there present themselves immacualetly groomed
criminaliation of punters in sweden has had a huge impact; most now are scared to punt at home and they go to other countries like latvia oin booze and sex breaks; the few escorts that do work there charge upwards of the equivalent of 200eur per half hour.......
what a state abandons to the fringes, criminals will gladly move in.
exploiting what remains for a greater street price.
result: society paying a higher price.
A general campaign like this is unlikely to make much progress.
If 1000 people 'Like' the Facebook campaign, the general public will interpret that as 1000 degenerates out to abuse sex workers, including those trafficed (sic).
Any campaign driven by clients just wont be credible in the eyes of the public.
The only way for this to work is for escorts to stand up for themselves and put forward their case that it is possible to have consenting sex for money.
The best approach might be for escorts, or representatives, to negotiate with the anti-sex work campaign groups to make the proposed laws compatible with the work of genuine escorts.
A general campaign like this is unlikely to make much progress.
If 1000 people 'Like' the Facebook campaign, the general public will interpret that as 1000 degenerates out to abuse sex workers, including those trafficed (sic).
Any campaign driven by clients just wont be credible in the eyes of the public.
The only way for this to work is for escorts to stand up for themselves and put forward their case that it is possible to have consenting sex for money.
The best approach might be for escorts, or representatives, to negotiate with the anti-sex work campaign groups to make the proposed laws compatible with the work of genuine escorts.
I tend to agree with u,also there was a petition started here some time back and it met with a very very poor response,
The problem generally with a site of this nature is that the owners, the advertisers, the users who are non forum members
and the forum users will all have different agendas and each will put their own needs first
What is the new legislation? Ive always been of the understanding that independent escorting is pretty much legal here right? Will the new legislation change that? Anyway id guess 99.9999% of politicians wouldnt get behind any campaign in support of completely legal escorts or brothels as the majority of the voting public wouldnt support it imo. Call me cynical but its probably just to generate interest in the website as people surely people must realise that any campaign is gona fail. Maybe in another generation or two when society has developed that bit further and religion has died out even more it would succeed but until then i just couldnt ever imagine the joe duffy crowd and politicians going for it.
I would caution against being complacent. The anti- escorting movement (they call themselves anti-trafficking) is very organised. Check out "Turn off the red light" website. Pat Rabbit of the Labour party has already promised to enact the bill if labour comes into power. I know politicians are liars but this would be a very soft bill to pass. Head shops were closed down overnight (so that all control is now in the hands of hardcore drug dealers). I fear the same thing could happen with this bill. Do not console youself that it is a minority that is supporting this bill. They are a strong political lobby. I wish it were otherwise, but I seriously fear the end of escorting as we know it in Ireland. It may also be the end of E-I. Of course there will always be escorting in Ireland, but it will be run by pimps/ organised crime and prices will be exorbitant as in Sweden. I suggest we all support the blue light campaign by E-I and post some reasonable arguments. The more posts the better.
A general campaign like this is unlikely to make much progress.
If 1000 people 'Like' the Facebook campaign, the general public will interpret that as 1000 degenerates out to abuse sex workers, including those trafficed (sic).
Any campaign driven by clients just wont be credible in the eyes of the public.
The only way for this to work is for escorts to stand up for themselves and put forward their case that it is possible to have consenting sex for money.
The best approach might be for escorts, or representatives, to negotiate with the anti-sex work campaign groups to make the proposed laws compatible with the work of genuine escorts.
I agree with you bedridden. But the problem is that there are very few escorts that use the boards. The majority just advertise and are not an organised group. Many escorts i've met are not familiar with the proposed legislation. The reality is that the most of the escorts would just move on to another country. The biggest losers would be us the clients.
I suggest we fight this on the grounds that criminalizing clients will just send the industry underground and increase trafficking.
And at the same time we can support encourage escorts to do what you've suggested. The problem is that they may not be able to use E-I as a valid platform as E-I benefits financially from their advertising. And this to my knowlegde may also be illegal if the proposed bill is passed.
My only consolation in all this is that the Gardai may be too busy with all their cutbacks to enact this vigorously. However, that won't stop them from making some public arrests when the bill first comes out to make a show that they are doing something.
skywalker85
13-02-11, 00:33
criminaliation of punters in sweden has had a huge impact; most now are scared to punt at home and they go to other countries like latvia oin booze and sex breaks; the few escorts that do work there charge upwards of the equivalent of 200eur per half hour.......
why go to latvia and spend 200eur for half hour when ya can go prague or amsterdam and pay between 70-100eur half hour lol
I would caution against being complacent. The anti- escorting movement (they call themselves anti-trafficking) is very organised. Check out "Turn off the red light" website. Pat Rabbit of the Labour party has already promised to enact the bill if labour comes into power. I know politicians are liars but this would be a very soft bill to pass. Head shops were closed down overnight (so that all control is now in the hands of hardcore drug dealers). I fear the same thing could happen with this bill. Do not console youself that it is a minority that is supporting this bill. They are a strong political lobby. I wish it were otherwise, but I seriously fear the end of escorting as we know it in Ireland. It may also be the end of E-I. Of course there will always be escorting in Ireland, but it will be run by pimps/ organised crime and prices will be exorbitant as in Sweden. I suggest we all support the blue light campaign by E-I and post some reasonable arguments. The more posts the better.
While i agree with the most of what u are saying i would disagree with u on a couple of points, 1/ The majority of escorting/
prostitution here in Ireland already has some input from pimps/organised crime this is not to be confused with trafficking
which is a different issue altogether and i believe not a serious problem in Ireland as of yet. The other thing is there are alot
of Independent girls working in Sweeden i know of girls that work here and advertise on this site and also work in Sweeden
and the prices there are something similar to what they were here before the downturn, remember the Sweedish economy is not
in the toilet like ours is, i can guarntee u if we had only been moderately effected by the recession like other countries the
prices here would not have dropped to level they are at now either, remeber all things are relative
The problem is that escorts don't have a voice.
I know EI have a vested interest in the escorting business, but I still think they could be a credible representative of the escorting community. For example, the AA seem to have a very loud voice in automotive/traffic matters, so it could be similar with EI.
I would like to know if EI have been in contact with anit-sex work groups to put a case forward?
vampirejackie
13-02-11, 00:43
The problem is that escorts don't have a voice.
I know EI have a vested interest in the escorting business, but I still think they could be a credible representative of the escorting community. For example, the AA seem to have a very loud voice in automotive/traffic matters, so it could be similar with EI.
I would like to know if EI have been in contact with anit-sex work groups to put a case forward?
I have asked Pat if she can answer this as I dont know the answer.
Lucy Chambers
13-02-11, 00:47
It might be worth pressing for a modified version of this, where the purchase of sex from a contolled person is criminalised. Thats the current law in the UK.
The problem is that escorts don't have a voice.
I know EI have a vested interest in the escorting business, but I still think they could be a credible representative of the escorting community. For example, the AA seem to have a very loud voice in automotive/traffic matters, so it could be similar with EI.
I would like to know if EI have been in contact with anit-sex work groups to put a case forward?
Well u see E-I or any similar sites will always have a credibility issue,because they will only correspond through the media
E-Mails, press releases,facebook twitter etc, they are faceless entitys and wont be treated seriously until a face is put
to the buisness. Can u see the owners of E-I going on TV etc and debating the issues? U cant expect any other organisations
to enter into any kind of dialogue if they dont know who they are speaking to. Why they wont come forward i dont know,
as under current law their site is not breaking the law, what have they to hide?
It might be worth pressing for a modified version of this, where the purchase of sex from a contolled person is criminalised. Thats the current law in the UK.
The grey area here is how to define a controlled person,as i believe it the penalties are quite harsh including incarcaration
because no knowledge of the girls circumstances is not a defence. The actual definition of trafficking is not what we would all
deem it to be ie a girl brought here against her will or coerced to work. In reality if somebody just organises for a girl to come
here to work totally of her free will by definition she is deemed to be trafficked. How many genuine guys have gone to see
girls in these circumstances and never knew or realised because the girl is there by choice and nothing would seem amiss
or to all intents and purposes nothing would be
Well u see E-I or any similar sites will always have a credibility issue,because they will only correspond through the media
E-Mails, press releases,facebook twitter etc, they are faceless entitys and wont be treated seriously until a face is put
to the buisness. Can u see the owners of E-I going on TV etc and debating the issues? U cant expect any other organisations
to enter into any kind of dialogue if they dont know who they are speaking to. Why they wont come forward i dont know,
as under current law their site is not breaking the law, what have they to hide?
I agree, there will have to be a face to any representation.
Now might be just the right time for them to come out of the shadows.
While i agree with the most of what u are saying i would disagree with u on a couple of points, 1/ The majority of escorting/
prostitution here in Ireland already has some input from pimps/organised crime this is not to be confused with trafficking
which is a different issue altogether and i believe not a serious problem in Ireland as of yet. The other thing is there are alot
of Independent girls working in Sweeden i know of girls that work here and advertise on this site and also work in Sweeden
and the prices there are something similar to what they were here before the downturn, remember the Sweedish economy is not
in the toilet like ours is, i can guarntee u if we had only been moderately effected by the recession like other countries the
prices here would not have dropped to level they are at now either, remeber all things are relative
I was not aware of the control of organised crime/pimps in the escort industry in Ireland. I have certainly not come across that in my limited experience but I bow to your greater experience. ( I mean that genuinely. Clearly you have been at this longer than I have and have a clearer insight into the industry).
From my point of view, I have no intention of continuing seeing escorts in Ireland should the bill be passed. I have too much to lose to risk being charged (not necessarily convicted) of 'sex offences'. I think i will be investing in time sharing condo's in Spain and brushing up on my Spanish.
I was not aware of the control of organised crime/pimps in the escort industry in Ireland. I have certainly not come across that in my limited experience but I bow to your greater experience. ( I mean that genuinely. Clearly you have been at this longer than I have and have a clearer insight into the industry).
From my point of view, I have no intention of continuing seeing escorts in Ireland should the bill be passed. I have too much to lose to risk being charged (not necessarily convicted) of 'sex offences'. I think i will be investing in time sharing condo's in Spain and brushing up on my Spanish.
Yes i agree with u regards the gardai not really needing convictions if this comes to pass,all they need is for to take a few cases
to court get a few names in the papers and it will have the desired effect,for a first offence i presume it would be just a small fine
basically a slap on the wrist, but the fallout for most guys on a personal level would be huge.As for the pimping there are agencies
everywhere that escorts advertise on this site, to the level in many of the smaller places that the true independents find it difficult
to work without intimidation,some of this is subtle some not so subtle.Some of the individuals running these agencies have premises in alot of towns and cities across the country, and all advertise the girls as independents
Yes i agree with u regards the gardai not really needing convictions if this comes to pass,all they need is for to take a few cases
to court get a few names in the papers and it will have the desired effect,for a first offence i presume it would be just a small fine
basically a slap on the wrist, but the fallout for most guys on a personal level would be huge.As for the pimping there are agencies
everywhere that escorts advertise on this site, to the level in many of the smaller places that the true independents find it difficult
to work without intimidation,some of this is subtle some not so subtle.Some of the individuals running these agencies have premises in alot of towns and cities across the country, and all advertise the girls as independents
That might explain the difference in my experience as I've only seen escorts in Dublin.
However, I now recall one escort telling me that the gardai were informed anonymously of her activities when she was touring a smaller town. It makes sense now if it was some pimp marking his territory.
I would caution against being complacent. The anti- escorting movement (they call themselves anti-trafficking) is very organised. Check out "Turn off the red light" website. Pat Rabbit of the Labour party has already promised to enact the bill if labour comes into power. I know politicians are liars but this would be a very soft bill to pass. Head shops were closed down overnight (so that all control is now in the hands of hardcore drug dealers). I fear the same thing could happen with this bill. Do not console youself that it is a minority that is supporting this bill. They are a strong political lobby. I wish it were otherwise, but I seriously fear the end of escorting as we know it in Ireland. It may also be the end of E-I. Of course there will always be escorting in Ireland, but it will be run by pimps/ organised crime and prices will be exorbitant as in Sweden. I suggest we all support the blue light campaign by E-I and post some reasonable arguments. The more posts the better.
I have worked in Sweden, and was quite busy. I saw many men in my in call place, and did quite a few outcalls as well. Yes it is true what you say about the lessening of TW, as well as the clients are indeed VERY well behaved. The other point I will make goes out to all the gents who love to whinge about the prices as they currently are. If this law passes, you will be begging for the current rates.
I would like to know if EI have been in contact with anit-sex work groups to put a case forward?
In regard to this point, the anti-sex work groups like Ruhama would not speak to us so it is impossible to have any discussion with them.
Lucy Chambers
13-02-11, 12:04
There isnt only the Swedish Model to follow though, the UK brought in the Crime And Policing Bill in 2009, which criminalises the purchase of sex with anyone who is controlled. This has not had a visible effect on Independent Escorts, only on agencies. Perhaps it would be more sensible to accept that reforms will be coming in and push for the UK model. We need to form a Union.