View Full Version : Help us with the Turn off the Blue Lights Campaign - Your comments required urgently
vampirejackie
12-02-11, 20:13
How would criminalising the purchase of sex impact on this industry?
Escorts, clients, others, we need your views!
In connection with our "Turn Off The Blue Light" campaign we need your views of how criminalising the purchase of sex would impact on this industry.
We know there are many reasons why criminalising the purchase of sex is wrong but we need real comments from real Irish escorts explaining how this will make your job more dangerous etc, and from real Irish clients explaining they are not monsters (as some people perceive)and have no desire to pay for sex with trafficked women etc.
We need as many comments as possible to add to our campaign website and would like them by Sunday afternoon so we can collate them and add them to our campaign site for launch on Monday.
All comments can be anonymous if you wish, or you can include a name/location of your choice, like Emma, Limerick or Paddy, Belfast.
Comments can either be posted on this thread, or sent by PM to a manager or sent via filling out our online Contact Form.
This is a really important issue for all of us, and i really do urge you to have your say and help try and make a difference.
Please keep this thread on topic
Thanks all
I'll go first then.
I'm a guy in my mid-twenties living in a very small town in Kerry. I'll admit I'm not the greatest catch but besides that I don't often get the chance to meet or mix with eligible single women. Without the outlet provided by Escorts I would have to give up my decent job, which I'm heavily taxed on, and either move to a larger town/city where I will probably end up unemployed or have to emigrate because of fears for my mental health.
I live in an area with a very high number of suicides among young men who don't have the opportunity to have intimate connections with women, however brief those connections are. I'm not saying that this is the only reason why they do this but I'm afraid that without this outlet I don't know what path I may eventually walk down.
I'm a lonely person but not a monster. The ladies I've spent time with have not been forced to provide they services that they do. And, no matter how lonely I ever get, if I felt that any of the ladies that I visited were under duress I would immediately report this to the authorities, damn the consequences for me.
Its a Saturday night on Valentines weekend and I'm all alone posting on this board. But right now I'm not going to let that get me down because of I've got plans for tomorrow... Thank you E-I, thank you ladies. You may be saving my life.
women and men experience society as sexual opposites.
men may need purchase services sometimes, owing to this contrast.
rubberlover
12-02-11, 22:30
Hi I have to support your endeavour; I have used escorts now for a good few years and always, always use independent girls. I condone in the strongest manner the exploitation of any women or man for that matter in the area of escorting. Those who partake in this vile activity of trafficing and pimping deserve to suffer the strongest penalties from the courts. I therefore really wish we could be mature and adult about this practice in Ireland and allow women and men who wish to work in this field the freedom and "support" of the state. If it was regulated then people working in it would treated fairly and equally and it would help stamp out the pimps and traffickers to a greater extent. So you have my support for an end to the criminalisation of this occupation for those who choose to work "Freely" in this area. I am based in Dublin.
women and men experience society as sexual opposites.
men may need purchase services sometimes, owing to this contrast.
Pretty obvious I know but:
Why shouldn't an ordinary man be able to spend time with an independent escort, both should have the basic human right to choose and decide what they do together as consenting adults.
Focus on targetting the traffickers who are controlling women for their own gain.
Pretty obvious I know but:
Why shouldn't an ordinary man be able to spend time with an independent escort, both should have the basic human right to choose and decide what they do together as consenting adults.
Focus on targetting the traffickers who are controlling women for their own gain.
competent supports are in place if an escort was in that situation:
Ruhama | Supporting women affected by prostitution and human tra (http://www.ruhama.ie/)
vampirejackie
12-02-11, 22:54
Hi, can i request that the thread is kept just for comments that can be quoted, then there is no mistake made about what is used for the webiste.
I see another thread has been created for discussion on this issue.
Thanks
:)
the situation as it is is pretty good for the escorts + the clients at the moment because of WEBSITES LIKE E.I with information ,forum etc . criminalising is going to drive it underground
this can only make it much more dangerous for the escorts the people calling for this are trying to imply that a lot of women are being trafficked as sex workers , there definetly has been people trafficking but it is a very very small minority , in the main this is very rare , the escorts are here for financial, family, reasons by choice , what can possibly be wrong with paying for a service that makes one feel good makes one happy
maakka
I would like to express my concern and objection against the proposed bill to further criminalize the escorting industry. As far as I understand it, the bill is set to criminalize clients seeking sexual services offered by escorts. The proponents of this bill claim that this will stop the unlawful trafficking of women (and children) for forced sexual abuse.
Lets be very clear that human trafficking is unacceptable in any society and should not be toletated. However, I fear that the enactment of this bill will only serve to perpetuate human trafficking for the sex industry.
If one observes any of the main escorting websites available in Ireland, one will note a very high percentage of 'independant' or 'touring' escorts in comparison to similar websites in other countries such as the U.K. Independants are ladies that work for themselves. Touring escorts are those that work for a short time (e.g. a couple if weeks) before leaving the country and maybe returning at some stage in the future for a further stint. A woman works for herself of her own free choice. No pimps or brothel owners are involved. And clearly touring escorts are able to come and go becaue they have the freedom to do so and and not under the enslavement of some human trafficking organisation.
The proponents of this bill claim that it is not possible for any woman to voluntarily choose to work as an escort. In other words she must have been coerced into the profession. This is patronizing to the majority of escorts working in Ireland who do so by their own free will. Again the proponents of this new bill claim the opposite - i.e. that the majority of escorts working in Irleand are trafficked. This is simply unture and has never been backed up by fact.
The " Turn off the red light" campaign works on the principle of cutting off demand as a means to stopping trafficking. Again they are somewaht deluded in this regard. The demand for escorts will always exist in any country. If this bill is enacted, escorting will be driven further underground and will come under the exclusive control of organised crime. The majority of the escorts that work of their own free will, are likely to leave the country. The demand will therefore be catered for by an increased amount of trafficked women by criminal gangs. This will therefore produce the exact opposite effect to what the bill is intended to do. In countries where escorting is legal - it allows for better protection and education of escorts. It has also allowed for greater empowerment on the part of the escorts.
It is my sad conclusion therefore that those behind the "Turn off the Red light campaign" are really anti-prostitution for their own moral grounds rather than truly trying to tackle the element of human trafficking. As mentioned above if this bill is passed it wiill drive the sex industry further underground and increase human trafficking. The proponents of the bill will be quite happy because the industry will just be swept under the carpet.
MM
Dublin
This is a link by Sex Workers in Scotland against the criminalization of clients:
33 Reasons Why the Clients of Sex Workers Should Not Be Criminalised (http://www.scot-pep.org.uk/33reasons.html)
33 good reason against the proposed bill.
Kevin Myers of the (Independent.ie) eloquent analysis of proposed new bill on escorting:
Kevin Myers: Rampantte Rabbitte has to learn that moralising prohibitions upon human appetites never work - Kevin Myers, Columnists - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-rampantte-rabbitte-has-to-learn-that-moralising-prohibitions-upon-human-appetites-never-work-2529301.html)
Criminalizing the purchase of an independent would cause a life of poverty for the girls who can't work.
Many clients would be afraid to post here or to purchase services. It would cause the women who remain to do extras and dangerous things in order to compete for the clients that remain. The advert section of this site may be charged with aiding criminals. As a result of fear independents adverts may be vague as to what they offer causing conflict between themselves and their clients. Independents would have a harder time warning each other about bad clients etc when everything would be forced to go further underground. Many girls will turn to pimps believing they can be a lookout for police or give them places to work out of exacerbating the situation. If two people can have a one night stand, a person can commit adultery or have an abortion without being prosecuted then by all means two consenting adults can do as they please in private. If there's a third party that takes money from their session, that is wrong in my eyes and should be the only act criminalized.
Has the "Turn off the blue lights" campaign been launched? I thought today was the day?
bhoywonder
14-02-11, 15:45
was launched today. got a poster at work for it
Laws in ireland are a joke. The only reason they want to crimalise this service is because they cannot collect tax from it. I know i have said this before that i have been using escorts long before e.i and believe me i know what i am talking about. Who the fuck do they think they are trying to tell the likes of me what i can or can't buy with my money. Why didn't they call the bankers, developer,s politicians etc criminals. Now they trying to make name's for themselves before election etc. I am strictly against pimps,under age girls paedofiles [probably spelt that word wrong] .I am a married man sleeping alone and no person or law will stop me for paying for the company of an escort who are willing and doing so of their own choice. If i go to a hotel or an appartment to see an escort are they going to stand in the room to see if i hand over cash , a load of bollox which will never i hope be passed. If it does it will not worry me as i will continue as usual and fuck them all as they will have a hell of a job proving anything. I am Irish and i am sick to the of the teeth of pricks trying to tell us what we can or cant do. Any girl that i have been with and everything was consintual and i am mad at all this shit that they go on with. Sorry about the language but what do they want me to do without sex ,for me it would drive me off my game. john
Hasn't this already been well covered in the 'Writing to the Metro' post. There were some excellent informed discussion threads on there, surely you could use samples from there for your campaign ?
Sex is like air.
Everything is ok until you're not getting any
What did the big campaign launch involve today.
Was it publicised anywhere in the media to get attention.
Thanks
Sexy Sandy 69
16-02-11, 12:53
As an escort this law will do the complete opposite of what it proposes, it will leave those who need help & protection more vunerable.
If you make it a criminal offense to visit an escort, you will play right into the hands of those who already traffick girls, this law will make no difference to them.
If you force 'true independents' to only to do outcalls, you leave us more suspectible to attacks, sexual & non sexual, beatings, rape, kidnap all of which happen already on an alarming regualr basis, however we do have the safety of where we are working from, we do not have to travel to an address we do not know.
This website is very proactive in helping keep escorts safe, we are made aware of attacks & the details as soon as possible, this helps protect us. Your bill will not. We do not deserve to have this added risk, this work is already dangerous enough.
If you want to do something to protect girls who are trafficked, why not make it legal to register for a licence to work as an escort in this country, therefore anyone without a licence can be prosecuted. Take a look at how Amsterdam regulates the sex industry, they register all their escorts, health checks compulsory, location of girls known, this is a more logical answer to trafficking than to criminalize it.
Sandy.
fiatpunter
16-02-11, 13:20
I've stopped listening to Tom Dunne.
hope it helps...
Sandy, I didn't know escorts were licensed in amsterdam or elsewhere. I think it's a good idea. It also means each girl has some contact with the state which would help to alleviate any fear of looking for help if it is ever needed.
Sexy Sandy 69
16-02-11, 13:35
I read an article about Amsterdam, instead of working against the escorts they decided to work with them, they realised that the girls were not going to stop working. They also have mobile medical vans going around testing the girls & giving them advice. They know who works & where. Sex tourism is a big business in Amsterdam, but at least it is regulated. This law of criminalizing is not going to benefit anyone at all. The Irish government should look at other alternative measures.
Sandy x
Hi Jackie, feel free to quote this in any Turn off the Blue Light forum:
"I am an Irish male in my 30's. I am on my own, I do not have any intimacy in my life. I didnt intend for this to be the way my life would turn out but as of this time I can't wave a magic wand a change this. I sometimes employ the services of escorts and do so with all respect given to the individual girls and women concerned. People opposed to prostitution in all froms will consider this a contradiction in terms. I used to feel motivated to oppose this view, now I don't care anymore. My advantage here is that I actually never lose sight of the humanity of sex workers and don't have to resort to crude stereotyping to get a point across.
Lets put resources into combating trafficking. Lets put resources into supporting rape and assault victims. Lets properly resource the investigation, arrest and trial of pimps.
Furthermore lets respect individual choice and lets stop resorting to a load of fallacy-ridden drivel to get a point across.
And lets be clear about this much: There will ALWAYS be a supply and demand for paid sex, lets accommodate that and look after all parties concerned.
carlos marvado
18-02-11, 14:10
I believe that criminalising people who pay for consentual sexual activity with willing self-employed sex workers will create more problems than this proposed law is designed to solve.
Firstly, it will drive the escort business further underground (than it already is) and more into the control of those who are prepared to take risks for financial gain. Those escort clients who stand to lose most by being brought before the courts (even if a conviction is not achieved) will probably stop their escorting activity here and take their money outside of this jurisdiction. These will include many clients who would be reasonably well known in the community, those with good jobs, anybody in state employment, those who are married with families or in a relationship and anyone who would stand to lose either their reputation, job or family and home. Those clients who would remain, would to a large extend include those who have least to lose by getting a criminal conviction or being placed on the sex offenders list. The result of this would be a race to the bottom as escorts are forced to take more risks or indulge in riskier practices to make a living, see clients they might otherwise chose not to see. It would in fact make it more dangerous and difficult for escorts to work independently could force some into the "protective embrace" of agencies.
Secondly, from a purely economic point of view, forcing escort clients to travel abroad is not a great idea given the state of the Irish economy. Although touring escorts and many non-Irish residents who live here repatriate their earning to their home country, much as Irish emigrants in America and Britain sent money back home for centuries, they do also spend money here, which benefits the Irish economy. This includes flying with Aer Lingus or Ryanair, hotel or apartment accomodation, transport with Ireland (Plane/Rail/Bus/Taxi), food and general subsistance. If clients were forced to travel abroad for their sexual fun, there would be a much greater outflow from the Irish economy.
Thirdly, it is widely assumed by certain organisations, that escort clients are either dirty old man or depraved sexual deviants or misogynists. Maybe some are old, or dirty, or somewhat deviant in their sexual tastes, but the amount of money that it costs to see an escort here, means that many of them are in good well paid jobs and also well educated people. It has been stated before that clients see escorts for many reasons: company, excitement, variety. In many cases, I believe the availability of escorts actually benefits society in general.
How many men are stuck in loveless and possibly sexless relationships and only remain in this situation because they have an outlet for their sexual needs? Otherwise their frustrations could be far more damaging for family's wellbeing and unity. How many men for whatever reason (age, incapacity, looks, etc) have no realistic chance of physical intimacy with another person unless they pay for it? We have plenty of lonely people in our population and if visiting an escort makes them feel better about themselves, releases their emotional and physical tensions and gives them something to look forward to in their lives, I think this is money better spend than having to deal with the consequences of depression and other mental health issues at a latter stage.
Finally, we have spend decades in this country trying to get the Roman Catholic Church and those politicians who served it's purposes to take their noses and their laws out of our bedrooms. A woman's body is a woman's body and whether she decides of her own free will to use her intellect and brains, her charm and personality, her good looks, her voice, her athletic ability, her manual strenght or her sex to make the best living possible for herself, then that should be her right as a free person. The women's movement when campaigning over a woman's right to choice as regards a pregnancy coined a phrase "Keep your hands off our ovaries". In this case you should keep your hands off all our genitalia - female and male.
If as I suspect, the groundswell of pressure being exerted by certain misguided but well intentioned organisations, results in the next government bringing forward a law which criminalises those who pay for sex, it could prove difficult to police and secure a conviction. Given that the gardai are unlikely to be in a hotel bedroom or apartment bedroom when any money is handed over, it would be virtually impossible to differentiate between an escort/client situation where money had changed hands and one where the escort and gone out for an evening the night before, met a man in a pub/club, fell for his charm/looks/money and invited him round the next day for a coffee or a bit of how's your father. As long as the escort and client exchange real first names and he knows her real nationality and there is no evidence that the client gave her any money, then the police will have questions to answer for possibly breaking and entering and violating the privacy of a bedroom whilst two people were engaged in an act of love there. Given how badly our Dail screwed up time after time with the wording of pro-life amendments, this could all end up in a higher court where civil liberties and the right to privacy rather than prostitution will be the issue.
Our political, garda and judicial time and resources, not to mention tax payers money would be far better served by a campaign to tackle forced prostitution and sexual slavery and the traffickers and pimps engaged in this rather then targetting legitimate sole trader sex workers and their clients. This business has been around since a serpent tempted Eve with an apple and for as long as men have money and a labido and women can earn more money doing this then they could legitimately expect to make any other way it wont be going away. If certain organisations want to do something constructive about prostitution, they can start by trying to tackle poverty in the world, the status of women in certain parts of the world, spousal desertion, unemployment, lack of educational opportunities etc.
Yours etc.
C. Marvado
I read an article about Amsterdam, instead of working against the escorts they decided to work with them, they realised that the girls were not going to stop working. They also have mobile medical vans going around testing the girls & giving them advice. They know who works & where. Sex tourism is a big business in Amsterdam, but at least it is regulated. This law of criminalizing is not going to benefit anyone at all. The Irish government should look at other alternative measure
Sandy x
Sandy the Netherlands is changing very rapidly against prostitution. There is a real Lutheran backlash & a move to the right. The key to this is human rights. It is your right to earn a living & to sell your services. Any removal of that right is no different to removing the rights of women to not be coersed into prostitution. The message has to be kept very simple. This law would make prostitution illegal which is a huge step from where we are now.
Jack in the Box
21-02-11, 01:32
I'm getting a letter ready to email to all the TD's and after that the councillors can be emailed. Everyone else should do the same.
Fair play to SWAI. They are standing up to this crowd of non-entities. The SWAI should be given as much assistance as possible.
What is required to put an ad up on Facebook to advertise the Turn off the blue light campaign? I thought that a picture of an attractive woman and an attractive man could be used in the ad. Would that be allowed by Facebook for copyright reasons etc.
hey Jack In the box
While I admire your desire to help
I am not convienced clients sending off leters will help.
We can easily be dismissed as perverted. Especially at the moment. If and when i real debate is happening maybe but at the moment and esp before the election we may need to hold off.
I feel it maybe down to the women working in the industry to lead the campaign although we can crtinally help
I have just contacted the swai again lending my support ans will paricipate in the run I advise everyone else to do so.
I think that doing anything now would be pointless & could serve to just stir up future problems. We do not know who will be elected or what their policy will be. It could be years before Ireland introduce legislation.
has anyone here been in contact with the sex workers alliance. They arent answering my emails
I work in the media and I know for sure that many journalists, looking to advance their career, write articles about the escort business with their mind already made up that the escorts are all exploited victims and the clients are all monsters. They fancy themselves as fearless investigative journos with their concealed cameras and mics and cannot bear to see the real picture. Bang goes their big scoop if they did. Self centered negativity and lies. I consider my reasons for going to an escort to be motivated by healthy and safe reasons and am unaware of any harm done by me to anyone as a result. I would love to do a story about the real picture, but I can't reveal my identity or that of any escorts, but if any escorts are willing to go on the record (anonymously if necessary) and state how much money they owe, how much money they make, describe how they are exploited if at all and describe any dangers to health and safety they experience etc., and paint what I think is the real picture, a lot of people would be really surprised. A lot of the problem is caused by women's libbers and holy Catholic Irish conservative's need to perceive the situation as bad and wrong in order to prop up their arguments. Web sites like E-I have largely taken the business off the street and into a much more easily regulated and safer environment and has been a step forward. Re-introducing criminalization of escort or client would be a step back.
sterotypicalusername
01-04-11, 00:00
Hi.
While I may have points in opinion to legalising or non criminalisation of clients i'm sure they've already been put on this thread already far more eloquently than I could. Thusly I shall try keep this succint.
As for myself if it were criminalised then it's possible I would stop using escorts but most likely I'd just become more sporadic in my usage. Without the safety of at least some organisation such as ei to give me any warnings of who i would be picking up, their affiliations (if any) with organised crime, girls with known, possibly dangerous veneral diseases. By criminalising the modicum of regulations that have arisen, through the goodwill and work or regulators and moderators on ei, you are effectively handing the industry to illegal organisation. An industry, by the by, which is as old as civilisation.
As for the safety of the women/male sex workers? I can only surmise to this but would not a place where escorts can indulge in herd safety be a good thing. Where they can congregate freely without judgement or prejudice and discuss the dangers.( I believe the escorts do indeed have private forums where they discuss time wasters/dangerous or threatening clients and possible doctors/ money management etc etc et al. To drive this underground is to effectively disband it.
It's like....I used work as a security guard in a retail chain when younger. Now we had walky talkys to other guards for the same company in my town which we used to call for help if needed or ask for advice if suspicious of certain individuals. Also there was certain characters who travelled shop to shop with the sole purpose of shop lifting. If one person who was aware of them saw these 'characters' they called and warned everyone in the company in different shops. Even those in rival companies. What you essentially propose is to take away the walky talkies and yet you don't see any downside?
Maybe not so succint
Liberty Love
03-04-11, 10:57
I did not even start touring Norway or Sweden until after the law was changed there... I love working up there as clients nice , clean, polite and pay well. I think I will be booking flights soon..
Criminalising the purchase of sex will do nothing for the safety of escorts, nothing for the safety of women who are not escorts and nothing to deter the very small number of evil men in our society who set out to harm women.
My own experience is that I am a middle aged man with a good job. I spend time with escorts to enjoy adult escapism - a short time when I can remove myself from the pressures of the real world and live in a world of relaxation and enjoyment. With the internet available to arrange these meetings, I can do this with absolute discretion - the only people who know about my meetings are myself and the escort. I take my responsibilities in these arrangements very seriously. I would not stay with an escort who I felt was in any way uncomfortable with my being there. I would not stay with an escort who I thought had not been personally involved in arranging the meeting. I would not stay with an escort who was not the lady in the photographs I had seen on the website. If I felt an escort was in any way scared or unhappy I would look to give her support (though I would be wary of the Garda responding sympathetically to her or me).
I will stop meeting escorts if I am to be treated as a criminal.
But would those men less balanced and less responsible than myself see this as a disincentive - those who may end up in certain circumstances harming women. I think not.
Protection of women starts with enabling them to take care of themselves discreetly, such as being able to work in groups of two or three and enabling them to set up a self managed and self regulated registration and safety monitoring system. It involves discreet and sympathetic policing that is aimed at their protection.
This law is based purely on poorly thought out morality. What makes my meetings with escorts more morally reprehensible than me touring bars trying to intoxicate married womed with alcohol and lure them into adultery. What makes my meetings with escorts less morally responsible than me finding a naive and innocent young lady - wining and dining her with an aim of luring her into my bed.
This law is a proposal based on lazy thinking and unwillingness to do the right thing instead of the easy thing. It will be counter productive.
If you can get your hands on yesterday's Sunday Independent, go to page 22 in Life magazine - "red light alert."
I've used escorts in Amsterdam, the U.S., Thailand, the U.K. Hungary and Ireland. I only encountered one, (in London,) who seemed very uncomfortable with what she was (going) to do. I just made my excuses and left. Any escort I encountered was doing it for her own ends/variation on an existing career/was highly sexed/curious. Some operated from virtual cupboard size premises and some had the luxury of 5 star accomodation. Some were loving, charming, adventurous, real g.f.e. and you'd want to run away with them. Some were cold and indifferent (particularly those in those high rise "purpose built" blocks in Cologne, Germany. The most natural (and cheapest) operated from government controlled facilities in Bangkok. It felt more like a spa/health club than a brothel. This latter option is obviously the way to go. All up front and, in your face, so to speak. So there would be no more photoshop camera lies, or lies about services offered/favourites which curiously become withdrawn as soon as you've parted with your hard-earned readies. I've been robbed, cheated, lied to and deceived by escorts, in the MAIN in Ireland. Or they have been cold, indifferent or downright rude, just wanting to get my money. I have no desire to abuse any of them and I look forward to meeting more of the loving engaging nurturing and exciting type. The only way is to legalise and, Ireland inc., "DO IT PROPERLY!". Unfortunately the dominance of organised religion and the stuffed shirts that go with it will attempt to criminalise/drive it underground which will be followed by the predictable hand-wringing when it all goes pear shaped. BLOODY PURITANS!! Think we're an advanced and progressive society....think again. Ireland was always a mess morally, now it's a financial mess as well.
A couple of weeks ago, Tony Bates writing for the health supplement of the Irish Times wrote a piece entitled "Turn off the red light." Same old puritanical and backward thinking - but hey what the hell would he know as a "mental health" specialist...? When he gets stressed he claims the best relief is for him to pack his bags and "head for my log cabin in Colorado, U. S." Well that's handy advice....now if everyone had one of those...
First off may I say well done to the publicity TOTBL has gotten over the last week. Condradulations all involved put in a lot of hard work.
May I recommend contacting the Heaving Herald either as part of TOTBL or as individual sexworkers
In the last two days they have printed two anti sexwork/escorting/prostitution stories
One dealing with trafficking and one today which is just a PR piece for Ruhama
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/the-happy-hooker-is-total-fiction-in-a-world-where-there-is-a-daily-risk-of-rape-2617992.html
I don't know if the paper like the irish Times has picked a side yet but we need to get our message accruals
We need escorts and the escorts need us.
We can not live without escort,and the escort can not live/work without us
We need each other
Jack in the Box
26-04-11, 22:44
If the people on the Turn off the red light side are emailing TD's and senators then we need to do the same. The more of us that do this the better.