View Full Version : Please write in to Metro Herald letters to protest about criminalising clients!
Jack in the Box
08-02-11, 00:45
At the moment there are discussions in the letters page of the Metro Herald about sex workers.
Please write in to the letters page to back up people like Vigilant Dubliner and Just another man.
It's your chance to stand up to proponents of this retrograde law which will criminalise clients of sex workers.
Of course trafficking is very wrong and should be eradicated but this law takes away peoples rights.
It will not take up much of your time.
Just write a few lines even to mail@metroherald.ie
You can give yourself a make up name.
Voices need to be heard or else this website will end up just a talking shop if this outrageous law comes in.
At the moment there are discussions in the letters page of the Metro Herald about sex workers.
Please write in to the letters page to back up people like Vigilant Dubliner and Just another man.
It's your chance to stand up to proponents of this retrograde law which will criminalise clients of sex workers.
Of course trafficking is very wrong and should be eradicated but this law takes away peoples rights.
It will not take up much of your time.
Just write a few lines even to mail@metroherald.ie
You can give yourself a make up name.
Voices need to be heard or else this website will end up just a talking shop if this outrageous law comes in.
I see you've had an overwhelming response to this :-)
You are 100% correct. I'll post a letter to that address and copy it here.
Thanks for the heads up Jack. This is a very important and worrying issue and if the legislation goes through it will ruin escorting in Ireland for both clients and escorts. I will pen a letter to them. The thrust of my argument will be that criminilizing clients will only serve to drive the industry further underground and come under the control of organized crime. Thereby further perpetuating human trafficking.
I doubt if anyone will listen, but as you've said - we need to have a voice and this is an anonymous way to do it.
Once again thanks for the heads up.
women and men are of course equal in any progressive society.
equal does not mean the same-because they are not.
the premise that a man has to navigate a relationship, even if
all he desires/requires is sex is folly!
then again-take a look around and a look back?
women and men are of course equal in any progressive society.
equal does not mean the same-because they are not.
the premise that a man has to navigate a relationship, even if
all he desires/requires is sex is folly!
then again-take a look around and a look back?
I'm sure some our non native English language readers are thinking their level of English is not as good as they thought after reading this.
Don't worry. I haven't got a fucking clue what it means either :-)
I'm sure some our non native English language readers are thinking their level of English is not as good as they thought after reading this.
Don't worry. I haven't got a fucking clue what it means either :-)
i don't understand why you have been so inpolite?
i don't understand why you have been so inpolite?
Apologies if I have offended you. It was meant to be taken as a bit of fun.
I don't normally like to slag someone else's post and use bad language, but sometimes I can be a bit of a cunt !
TheCelticDream
08-02-11, 11:49
i don't understand why you have been so inpolite?
"impolite"
Franken996
08-02-11, 15:44
At the moment there are discussions in the letters page of the Metro Herald about sex workers.
Please write in to the letters page to back up people like Vigilant Dubliner and Just another man........
You can give yourself a make up name.
Just don't call yourself Seymor Bush or Sukmy Hardon:D
Joking aside this is a good idea- let's just try to be factual e.g. point out that law in Sweden has not in reality reduced levels of prostitution but ( to Morpheus' point) quite possibly driven it further into the shadows thus facilitating trafficking!
"impolite"
Or the less common spelling, "fuck you" :)
Read Kevin Myers' column on this subject in today's Indo:
Kevin Myers: Rampantte Rabbitte has to learn that moralising prohibitions upon human appetites never work - Kevin Myers, Columnists - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-rampantte-rabbitte-has-to-learn-that-moralising-prohibitions-upon-human-appetites-never-work-2529301.html)
Read Kevin Myers' column on this subject in today's Indo:
Kevin Myers: Rampantte Rabbitte has to learn that moralising prohibitions upon human appetites never work - Kevin Myers, Columnists - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-rampantte-rabbitte-has-to-learn-that-moralising-prohibitions-upon-human-appetites-never-work-2529301.html)
he makes some good points-the middle bit upsets them so much.
the UK police found little evidence?
Jesus , just heard Tom Dunne on newstalk saying 'when you pay for sex, you are supporting sex traffickers and criminals...'
This is gathering momentum.
He mentioned a site www.turnofftheredlights.ie
We really need to get properly involved in this debate now.
Jesus , just heard Tom Dunne on newstalk saying 'when you pay for sex, you are supporting sex traffickers and criminals...'
This is gathering momentum.
He mentioned a site www.turnofftheredlights.ie
We really need to get properly involved in this debate now.
I might have spelling of site wrong. I'm driving. Maybe someone can post correct name?
Franken996
08-02-11, 17:55
its;
Turn Off The Red Light.ie | End Prostitution and Sex Trafficking in Ireland (http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/)
I'm just having a quick look now. Will read properly later.
I note there is a twitter site. Could be a way to express some opinions.
I'd love to hear more from some of the escorts who post here about what they think.
nothing on that site but projection of fiction.
moralistic/feministic bullshit-could be a cheap point scorer
for a broke goverment though.
nicegirlsarenice
08-02-11, 18:06
Kevin Myers makes some good points in that.
Suppose for another example a GP sets up a practice in a certain area. Is the GP going to be threatened and hounded out of the area by criminal gangs attached to another GP in the area?
People go mental when it comes to sex. You know how the "old" attitude was when it came to sex... fire and brimstone... a "mortal sin" etc..... it's still pretty much the same thing that's around except a bit less ridiculous and is just all focused in a different way.
Well dont vote Labour then.
The days of escort visiting in Ireland ( as you do it now, risk free bar being seen, or catching an sti ) will end if this happens.
The concept of criminality will nail most punters before they leave their front doors.
This country of ours really is a dump.
nothing on that site but projection of fiction.
moralistic/feministic bullshit-could be a cheap point scorer
for a broke goverment though.
I personally don't think you can fully dismiss what these people are highlighting.
There are two sides to this industry. To believe anything else is to bury our heads in the sand.
We need to show that there is the other side also. And that independent escorts should have the right to offer the services they offer and we as clients should have the right to avail of them, whilst at the same time having the moral obligation to not support trafficking and exploitation in any way.
Franken996
08-02-11, 18:13
know it's stating the obvious.. but apart from the likes of K.Myers- who's going to stick their head above the parapet.. (I personally admire KM a lot) but lets face it, he's seen as such a left wing liberal pointy head by many people in IRL, that it's going to take a lot more than him to call a halt to this insanity;
Guys & Girls- I already live in a jurisdiction where this game is criminalized, organize & get vocal or you're facing that prospect really soon- this is the the type of soft pedal push which will engulf the entire mainstream Irish media in a matter of days if it's no nipped in the bud now!!
Read some of the link for this Turn off the Red Light sight, and wow, all the classic arguments and misconceptions are there, re-packaged for a new consumer. Here are a few lines from their main page which stand out as particularly one-sided and wrong:
"Very few women choose to willingly engage in prostitution. Most who are involved have had very few real choices.
Some argue that prostitution is a harmless, commercial transaction between consenting adults. That women choose to become involved in prostitution and should have the freedom to do so. We refute this. Learn more about countries where the purchase of sex has been criminalised here.
Women involved in prostitution suffer severe physical and emotional harm from providing sex to multiple partners on a daily basis."
It's always tough going for us to fight against so much resentment and mis-information. They set-up a classic Straw man argument about the women who do the work and the men who make use of their services, and anything we try to say if defense is taken as a defacto defense of not only the right of the women to work and the men's right to make use of those services, but they go the one step further and pretend as if we are by extension defending trafficking and exploitation, which certainly NONE OF US would do.
We've got to find a way to get these people to see that while we punters and escorts are certainly in support of stopping human trafficking in all its forms, we also want to reserve the rights of 'consenting adults' to do whatever it is they choose to do in a private setting without it being criminalised.
Read the Keven Myers' column, and agreed, he makes some valid points.
His last point is particularly telling - criminalisation will not halt prostitution, but will drive it further underground.
This will make it less easy to monitor, and of course the money will attract violent pimps, so it could well make the situation worse.
Basing the laws on the Swedish model is interesting, because Swedish society and laws are so different from ours that thinking this could work "because it works in Sweden" is not a valid stance to take.
Franken996
08-02-11, 19:12
Read the Keven Myers' column, and agreed, he makes some valid points.
His last point is particularly telling - criminalisation will not halt prostitution, but will drive it further underground.
This will make it less easy to monitor, and of course the money will attract violent pimps, so it could well make the situation worse.
Basing the laws on the Swedish model is interesting, because Swedish society and laws are so different from ours that thinking this could work "because it works in Sweden" is not a valid stance to take.
as I've mentioned previously, there are no empirical findings* to support this law has worked in Sweden & much strong <albeit> anecdotal evidence to suggest it has made the situation worse ( for woman being trafficked) by virtue of being driven ever deeper underground.
* the "results" are from monitoring by.....( you guessed it, I posted the links before..) the committee headed by that judge who was responsible for instigating this bullshit in Sweden- what are they going to say: " yeah, we totally misread that one, our new law has made thing worse"?? It''s bizarre that no one is calling this one out, it's a straight case of the law of unintended circumstances -something Irish lawmakers (should) have a rather firm grasp on ....
as I've mentioned previously, there are no empirical findings* to support this law has worked in Sweden & much strong <albeit> anecdotal evidence to suggest it has made the situation worse ( for woman being trafficked) by virtue of being driven ever deeper underground.
I agree 100 percent, but there is a lot of kneejerk argumentation, and I was just positing one of these arguments.
All I was trying to say (ok, clumsily I admit) that even if it worked in Sweden, that it would not necessarily work here.
Labour intend to implement a ban on prostitution-i'm suprised
at the apparent lack of interest on the forum-fairly relevent to us?
i may just vote for this-i feel exploited as a male by the girls on this site-
wavin' um tasty pussy in front of me day after day-
just like a junky-i have to find those €100s somewhere.
nope-time to take a girlfriend/wife and let her decide where and when.
nicegirlsarenice
08-02-11, 20:53
-i feel exploited as a male by the girls on this site-
wavin' um tasty pussy in front of me day after day-
just like a junky-i have to find those €100s somewhere.
nope-time to take a girlfriend/wife and let her decide where and when.
I think there's a lot of truth in this, even though it was probably mainly said in jest. Everyone has to do things they don't really want to at times.
Most of these girls are making an extraordinary amount of money and living lifestyles unimaginable to the rest of us.
Labour intend to implement a ban on prostitution-i'm suprised
at the apparent lack of interest on the forum-fairly relevent to us
I am very surprised at the lack of comment on this and none at all from any escorts.
Don't people understand the relevance of this?
Newspaper articles, radio ads, new websites...
This is a really serious attempt to ban escorting. Make no mistake about it.
Again the link is www.turnofftheredlight.ie
Anyway that's my last word tonight. Just bumping it in case latecomers missed it earlier.
this is where they forced the headshop customers
to go, and guess whats next:
Limerick's Housing Estates..in street view. - SkyscraperPage Forum (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=186930)
"hi, i think i'm near there now-pay the guys sitting in the car?, ok"
Jack in the Box
08-02-11, 23:17
Fair play to everybody who responded to the request. Kevin Myres' article was mentioned in the thread. He is the Ronaldo of Journalism and writing I think and exposed some of the lies that we have to listen to from the groups who want to bring in this retrograde law.
BootSlick55
09-02-11, 01:35
another negative article in the Irish Times today.
"the women involved have no real choice," "tonight, 1000+ women are on sale on the internet all over Ireland." (paraphrasing)
such loaded arguments, sophistry of the highest order.
Why do they insist that 'escort' always equals 'trafficked victim'? In reality I imagine this is true about 0.1% of the time. (a % that should of course be helped/traffickers prosecuted etc). Maybe I am naively wide of the mark.
What is their definition of 'trafficked' I wonder. Why have the police both here and in GB stated that there is little 'sex trafficking' as a normal person would understand the term.
I am guessing that most escorts are economic migrants, i.e. they work here at their chosen profession for the money, primarily.
I agree 100 percent, but there is a lot of kneejerk argumentation, and I was just positing one of these arguments.
All I was trying to say (ok, clumsily I admit) that even if it worked in Sweden, that it would not necessarily work here.
I don't want to take this important issue of topic or get into a discussion about the criminality of the use of drugs, but i feel some of the arguements put forward apply equally to the topic under discussion, ie when authorities try to criminalise certain public behaviour .
Anyone who walks round with there eyes open or who find themselves in social situations will know that recreational and habitual drug taking is widespread. When the subject is raised there is always a section of society who will throw their hands up in hysterical horror. Authorities throughout the world have spent billions of dollars on prevention and failed miserably. Occassionally a large drugs haul will hit the headlines and we can all sleep happily in our beds in the knowledge that it is under control. The reality of course is any seizure is a tiny % of what's getting through. The authorities themselves don't even know the true scale of the business, why?, because it is forced underground and totally unregulated. It's the criminal gangs who run the drugs business.
As I say I don't want to muddy the waters by linking the two distinct topics, I certainly urge you not to put this in your letter to the Metro !! it will only give them another stick to beat us with, the good old arguement that escorts do it to feed their drug habit headline.
Remember kids...just say no
I just read Kevin Myers’s column and I have to say I am surprised of someone writing his view in opposite direction of the “majority”, he can be prepared for a lot of criticism.
I especially liked the following paragraph:
“Well, since every single aspect of this -- the kidnapping, the mass-rape, the forcible prostitution -- is already both against the law and comprehensively evil, why is another law needed? And anyway, most of his allegations are fable. A police survey in Britain was unable to find one single authentic case in which a foreign girl had been forcibly trafficked into the country for prostitution against her will. Allegations of kidnap and rape there have usually been made by illegal-immigrants in order to substantiate asylum-seeking claims.”
A new Law would, in my opinion, just give to society a false impression that something is being done in order to restrain human trafficking/ sexual exploitation.
Ruhama has available their annual report 2009, and in that year they had 26 new cases of women trafficked in Ireland. I am not saying that those 26 women are not important, if there was one person, it would be too many, I just point out the number of women advertising only on E-I. Seems to me that most women in this business in Ireland are in it for their own choice (what made them choose it?, I can’t say but it seems that nobody is willing to listen anyway, they already have a pre-conception about it)
It is not taken into consideration opinions other than what “they” decide is correct, what was said in Sweden "Based on a gender equality and human rights perspective . . . the distinction between voluntary and non-voluntary prostitution is not relevant." There is a big difference between someone doing something according to their own free will and being forced to do.
I personally don’t believe in the altruistic nature of this new Law . The ones that have acknowledgement of paying someone who is being forced to engage in prostitution should be penalised and the traffickers but not tar everyone with the same brush.
Due the nature of the business, to protect our own privacy, neither escorts or clients will stand up and express their thoughts publicly. We can voice our opinion but it will be a faceless voice and it will be hardly heard, I am afraid.
Ric Hardgear
09-02-11, 17:20
well said jasmin ,congrats on a superb post