View Full Version : New law could criminalise men for buying sex
John Shaft
03-01-11, 01:03
From today's (Monday's) Irish Times
CONOR LALLY, Crime Correspondent
THE GOVERNMENT is considering radical new criminal legislation that would shift the Garda’s approach to prostitution by making it illegal for a man to buy sex but not for a woman to sell it.
The legislation would put the Garda’s emphasis on prosecuting male clients rather than targeting women working as prostitutes.
Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has asked Attorney General Paul Gallagher to examine a report on similar laws introduced in Sweden that target male clients and have halved street prostitution over 10 years.
The Attorney General’s advice is being sought on the legal and constitutional implications of introducing the Swedish-style law here.
The Swedish legislation bans the purchase of sex by men but not the sale of sex by women, thus putting male clients at the centre of criminality around prostitution.
A delegation from the Dignity Project, which provides services to trafficked women in the Republic, visited Sweden in September along with officials from the Department of Justice.
They met Swedish officials to discuss Sweden’s evaluation of the ban on the purchase of sex some 10 years after it was first introduced there.
The delegation submitted a report on the visit to Mr Ahern and it has since been sent to the Attorney General for legal assessment with a view to implementing the ban here.
While Sweden became the first European state to ban the sale of sex in 1999, similar legislation has since been introduced in Norway and Iceland. If the same laws were introduced here, it is hoped the move would reduce the demand for sex from men because they would be more fearful of being caught.
At present the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993 makes it a criminal offence to solicit on the street or any other public place for the purposes of prostitution. A woman working as a prostitute can be prosecuted, as can a man trying to buy sex or a third party such as a pimp.
However, it is not a criminal offence to buy or sell sex in the Republic.
This anomaly makes it difficult for the Garda to prosecute women’s clients unless they are caught on the street.
A huge portion of the Republic’s prostitution trade is conducted behind closed doors in apartments run as brothels that are advertised online as escort services.
It is almost impossible for gardaí to prosecute those involved in that end of the trade because of its covert nature.
However, a new law introducing a clear ban on the purchase of sex would greatly aid the Garda in that regard. It would mean any evidence, such as telephone records, that emerged linking a client to a prostitute or a brothel could be used to prosecute.
Men would no longer have to be caught soliciting or kerb crawling. Women could still be prosecuted for soliciting but not for the sale of sex.
New law could criminalise men for buying sex - The Irish Times - Mon, Jan 03, 2011 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0103/1224286669821.html)
So how would this law affect Independant Escorts who charge for time and companionship?
Dermot Ahern wont be there after March to see any such law go through.
Dermot Ahern wont be there after March to see any such law go through.
True but some one else will
who is going to stand against that bill seeing as it has become public?
John Shaft
03-01-11, 01:24
The law, if it comes to pass, won't affect the escorts; it's the customers who are being targeted. It is being introduced to close off a perceived loophole in the law and to give greater powers to Gardai. As we know, paying for sex is not actually illegal in Ireland right now, even though most ordinary people probably think that it is.
I wouldn't see huge cause for concern. Even if the law comes in there will still be a strong burden of proof on Gardai. Unless someone is caught handing over money, the Gardai won't have a case that will stand up in court. And they don't have the resources to effectively police it anyway. It will be a bit like possession of small amounts of cannibis - technically illegal but not something the Gardai will be really bothered enforcing. Expect to see nothing more than a handful of token arrests to placate the moral majority and to show that "the new legislation is working".
As long as punters visit trusted and reputable escorts they should be ok and the business of these ladies shouldn't suffer.
It would be interesting to see the statistics for the number of prosecutions in Sweden, Norway and Iceland since the laws were introduced in those countries.
the retiring ministers won't be able spend there money now .:D jes i'll have a nice nest egg this time next year:clapping:the wife's clit will be worn out or else the babysitters:Dadult-cunnilingus
Admirable language Audi…PMSL..
I wonder what the escorts think of this, i mean, sure regular clients won't really be put off, but what about newcomers or casual clients? and what about ladies who are new to the scene and aren't quite "trusted and reputable escorts" just yet?
on the other hand, if its made illegal that can only make it more fun right? :)
lookingfornow
03-01-11, 10:56
Hi,
Not sure whether it is the same law that was brought out in the UK not too long ago. Now if a guy gets caught going in or coming out of a place that is known to be run by pimps or more than 1 girl working, he gets fined 1k plus a letter sent to his address. Lots of guys who visit escorts are married or with partner so the letter home would be a nightmare. Also they now take your car if you are caught looking for streetwlkers....explain that to the wife!
This is mainly to stop the pimps, it does not affect independants but the pimps will now advertise girls as working alone so clients really do need to be carefull and maybe do a bit of research before a visit.
xxxx
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11437499]BBC News - Could Swedens prostitution laws work in the UK?
Norway and Denmark have followed sweden with this law.
Delegates from Sweden were here boasting about the moral mess they've made-
I'd guess we will see a similar move here.
I mean, overnight they stopped the drug industry when
they shut the head shops. :rolleyes:
RandySpeedo
03-01-11, 13:57
IRISH TIMES to day,The Government is considering radical new criminal legislation that would shift the Garda's approach to escorting / prostitution by making it illegal for a man to pay for sex but not for a woman to sell it......
They are making it illegal to be a buysexual.
69patrick69
03-01-11, 14:25
link:https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/general-chat/55467-new-law-could-criminalise-men-buying-sex.html
Old news. They are concidering this long time already.
Iceland, Sweden, Norway etc is like that already and with succes.
Probably after a few years it would come here as well.
Jessie
69patrick69
03-01-11, 14:30
you are paying for her time and companionship only.
Anything else that occurs is a matter of coincidence and choice between consenting adults.
carlos marvado
03-01-11, 14:47
Dermot Ahern wont be there after March to see any such law go through.
That's right......he'll be sitting at home in Co. Louth watching the tailback of cars as southern punters head north of the border.......be sure to open your window and wave all that money that the Irish economy is loosing at him.
I think such a law could have any number of effects:
Drive escorting further into the shadows and into the hands of shadowy figures.
Reduce the number of punts/spend in ROI.
Force prices down further.
Cause an outflow of escorts/stop many coming here.
Increase the number of foreign punting trips.
you are paying for her time and companionship only.
Anything else that occurs is a matter of coincidence and choice between consenting adults.
I wonder how long more that statement will stand up in court...
I still don't get how they can prove you paid for anything.
If both parties say no money changed hands
ladiesman217
03-01-11, 15:42
I just "love" how this legislation concentrates on trafficked girls working in the sex industry. There's not a word on those who are doing it of their own free will, not being forced into it in any way whatsoever. I know this legislation focuses on criminalising the clients, but most likely all independent escorts here will be hit hard due to this. I don't know how escorting is gonna be tied into this legislation (assuming it goes through of course), since we pay for time and companionship only, not sex.
The main reason I go to escorts (very infrequently as it may be: once/twice a year) is for the companionship. I've always been timid about asking girls out, etc, but having spent time with a few escorts now it's almost upped my confidence a bit. Now I get why this legislation is being talked about, the whole human trafficking which is completely disgusting. But as I said, for those independent people who do this on their own free will, why criminalise clients for going to see them?
vampirejackie
03-01-11, 15:49
I have merged the two threads on this topic :)
John Shaft
03-01-11, 15:51
Here's the response of the Immigrant Council of Ireland to the proposed legislation, also from the IT website.
------------------------
Group favours new prostitution law
03/01/2011IRISH TIMES REPORTERS
The Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) has welcomed a report in today's Irish Times that the Government is considering reforming its approach to combating sex trafficking and the exploitation of women in Ireland's sex industry.
The Government is considering radical new criminal legislation that would shift the Garda’s approach to prostitution by making it illegal for a man to buy sex but not for a woman to sell it.
The legislation would put the Garda’s emphasis on prosecuting male clients rather than targeting women working as prostitutes.
Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has asked Attorney General Paul Gallagher to examine a report on similar laws introduced in Sweden that target male clients and have halved street prostitution over 10 years.
The Attorney General’s advice is being sought on the legal and constitutional implications of introducing the Swedish-style law here.
ICI chief executive Denise Charlton said the research revealed that about 90 per cent of the women involved in indoor prostitution are migrant women and significant numbers of women and children are being trafficked into Ireland's sex industry.
"The ICI, along with other civil society groups have been campaigning for Ireland to adopt the Swedish approach to combating sex trafficking and the exploitation of women in the sex industry by tackling the crucial link in their exploitation - the demand for paid sex - because that approach clearly works," Ms Charlton said.
"We are very pleased that the Government is seriously considering adopting legislative reform of our prostitution laws because it is clear to us, as an organisation that works with migrant women, that Ireland's current approach just wasn't working to end the exploitation of migrant women in Ireland. We strongly urge the Government to introduce these necessary reforms."
anitasizzle
03-01-11, 15:51
Thanks to author James Joyce it will never happen: James Joyce's Ulysses takes place on the summer day when Leopold Bloom took his fictional stroll through the streets, homes, businesses, and brothels of Dublin more than a century ago, A man paying for sex is glorified every June 16 in Dublin ( Bloomsday) for godsack! It'll never happen
John Shaft
03-01-11, 16:00
"ICI chief executive Denise Charlton said the research revealed that about 90 per cent of the women involved in indoor prostitution are migrant women and significant numbers of women and children are being trafficked into Ireland's sex industry".
This is the key sentence in this article. I would say the 90% figure is more or less accurate if you include British and other EU nationals. However, the supposition is that all migrant escorts are trafficked when everyone here knows that this is not the case. Note how they don't provide any figure for "significant numbers of women". Of course trafficking and forced prostitution is to be condemned but this kind of spindoctoring needs to be challenged. Why do the ICI, Ruhama and other pressure groups find it impossible to admit that many women work as escorts out of free choice?
carlos marvado
03-01-11, 16:02
Thanks to author James Joyce it will never happen: James Joyce's Ulysses takes place on the summer day when Leopold Bloom took his fictional stroll through the streets, homes, businesses, and brothels of Dublin more than a century ago, A man paying for sex is glorified every June 16 in Dublin ( Bloomsday) for godsack! It'll never happen
I would'nt be too sure about that Anita...........this gobshite Minister of Justice introduced a blasphemy law that now makes us the envy of every Islamic state on the planet. Plus you should bear in mind, that James Joyce loved this place so much that he left it.
Mind you, given the number of punters in every constituency, it'll probably cost them a few more seats.
The law, if it comes to pass, won't affect the escorts; it's the customers who are being targeted. It is being introduced to close off a perceived loophole in the law and to give greater powers to Gardai. As we know, paying for sex is not actually illegal in Ireland right now, even though most ordinary people probably think that it is.
I wouldn't see huge cause for concern. Even if the law comes in there will still be a strong burden of proof on Gardai. Unless someone is caught handing over money, the Gardai won't have a case that will stand up in court. And they don't have the resources to effectively police it anyway. It will be a bit like possession of small amounts of cannibis - technically illegal but not something the Gardai will be really bothered enforcing. Expect to see nothing more than a handful of token arrests to placate the moral majority and to show that "the new legislation is working".
As long as punters visit trusted and reputable escorts they should be ok and the business of these ladies shouldn't suffer.
It would be interesting to see the statistics for the number of prosecutions in Sweden, Norway and Iceland since the laws were introduced in those countries.
well said John Shaft, you should be called John Swift :-)
As always the focus and reason for this legislation is to target the negative aspect of the business. The trafficking of women by pimps and of course this should not be tolerated. But it assumes all escorts are forced into this business. What about the good, honest, trust worthy independent women.
It will still be very hard for the gardai who are under resourced to police it.
But if the legislation does get passed, I'm sure it will change the behaviour of a lot of clients and make them think twice.
anitasizzle
03-01-11, 16:09
I would'nt be too sure about that Anita...........this gobshite Minister of Justice introduced a blasphemy law that now makes us the envy of every Islamic state on the planet. Plus you should bear in mind, that James Joyce loved this place so much that he left it.
Mind you given the number of punters in every constituency, it'll probably cost them a few more seats.
It won't happen; visiting prostitutes is the nation's unoffical pastitme outside of drinking, too many men would get arrested which would lead to people having a more enlightened attitude towards it, so maybe iits not such a bad thing, but getting to that point is
carlos marvado
03-01-11, 16:41
It won't happen; visiting prostitutes is the nation's unoffical pastitme outside of drinking, too many men would get arrested which would lead to people having a more enlightened attitude towards it, so maybe iits not such a bad thing, but getting to that point is
Indeed, it should be reclassified as one of our national games and handed over to the GAA to run. Instead of that stupid idea to open a gambling mecca in Tipperary, the Croke Park Hotel should be operated as the National Punting Centre of Ireland.................with Micheal O Muircheartaigh brought out of retirement to do the commentary........"and that great stallward of Meath punting, Anon361 is struggling to get into the box......he shoots and scores.......it's come out again........the umpires have'nt raised their flags.......did it go in or not?.....Ber and the rest of the Cork team are remonstrating with Donegal referee Highwayman........his mother was an O'Donnell from Glenties.....a right little goer by all accounts. Lucy Chambers, one of the new players from across the water is now waving her strap-on in the referee's face.......will she or wont she?.......in the heat of battle there's nothing like the distinctive sound of the clash of the rubber......it's as much part of our culture as dingleberries or eating your dinner at lunchtime at the Y on a wet Sunday." :D:D:D
I still don't get how they can prove you paid for anything.
If both parties say no money changed hands
I suspect this is why they're not making it illegal for girls to sell it. I believe you have the right not to incriminate yourself but if what the lady is allegedly doing isn't illegal, she could be called on to testify under oath against her client.
anitasizzle
03-01-11, 16:59
Indeed, it should be reclassified as one of our national games and handed over to the GAA to run. Instead of that stupid idea to open a gambling mecca in Tipperary, the Croke Park Hotel should be operated as the National Punting Centre of Ireland.................with Micheal O Muircheartaigh brought out of retirement to do the commentary........"and that great stallward of Meath punting, Anon361 is struggling to get into the box......he shoots and scores.......it's come out again........the umpires have'nt raised their flags.......did it go in or not?.....Ber and the rest of the Cork team are remonstrating with Donegal referee Highwayman........his mother was an O'Donnell from Glenties.....a right little goer by all accounts. Lucy Chambers, one of the new players from across the water is now waving her strap-on in the referee's face.......will she or wont she?.......in the heat of battle there's nothing like the distinctive sound of the clash of the rubber......it's as much part of our culture as dingleberries or eating your dinner at lunchtime at the Y on a wet Sunday." :D:D:D
Well. Croke Park is only a hop, skip and a jump from where Ireland's original 'Red Light Distrct'
was situated before that evil bishop came in and forced the madames of the day to close up shop. What was the name of the area? It was in D3-the Montoe?...
I love lawmakers. They are so stupid. this has 2 effects.
1) men become more frustrated and so rape.
2) men become more frustrated so commit suicide.
wow, well done lawmakers! Dumb sh1ts.
I love lawmakers. They are so stupid. this has 2 effects.
1) men become more frustrated and so rape.
2) men become more frustrated so commit suicide.
wow, well done lawmakers! Dumb sh1ts.
what about 'free' sex within a relationship or givin' it a tug?
what about 'free' sex within a relationship or givin' it a tug?
Why do you think most of us are here? BECAUSE we aren't/can't get a relationship (and have given up). And tugging, that just brings along a whole other list of problems, hand cramps etc.. lol
esp
lookingfornow
03-01-11, 18:04
I still don't get how they can prove you paid for anything.
If both parties say no money changed hands
In some of the countries I have worked as an escort there are un written rules for girls and their clients. The guy puts the money on the side and the escort does not touch it until he leaves.
There is a lot of corruption regarding club owners and police, if a club owner (pimp) hears you are making too much money or his/her business is quiet because an independent girl is around, he will give police free girls to try and bust her. Just seems the way it is, I had to learn quite quickly!
xxx
takemedrunkimhome
03-01-11, 18:05
Has anyone heard about these new laws that are being spoken about?
I just half heard it on the 6 o clock radio news so I would be greatful if anyone who knows more could clear it up for me.
Basically what I got from it was that the current law states that a man can only be prosecuted for buying sex if he was caught in the act of paying for it on the steet. The new law will make it illegal for a guy to buy sex full stop :(.
It is a law that was passed in Sweden and seemingly it has halved the escort business there.
This is scaring the beejesus out of me. I would love if someone could clear it up or tell me I am going mental or something.
takemedrunkimhome
03-01-11, 18:07
Just saw this related thread, sorry for duplicating.
https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/general-chat/55467-new-law-could-criminalise-men-buying-sex.html
vampirejackie
03-01-11, 18:07
There is already a thread about this, and this is the 3rd one today! lol
I think this is a very worrying proposed piece of legislation by a bunch of self proclaimed do-gooders. I feel it will have a significant impact on the industry in Ireland if its passed. The gardai will have a licence to expose suspected clients. A conviction will probably be irrelevant. I would certainly have to re-think my punting activities. My life would crumble (from a work/ social/ and family perspective) should my involment in the industry be exposed, regardless of any prosecution. It seems obvious to me that the majority of the girls working on the EI site are all doing so by choice and are not victims of trafficking. However, this 'human trafficking' furore is being used by the so called do-gooders to target the entire industry. I am very concerned. I hope the economy and other more pressing concerns distract the new government for trying to press this new legislation.
vampirejackie
03-01-11, 18:11
Gonna merge this to other one.
Lucy Chambers
03-01-11, 18:11
Just saw this related thread, sorry for duplicating.
https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/general-chat/55467-new-law-could-criminalise-men-buying-sex.html
Relax. It hasn't been passed, it probably won't be passed and imo, they will follow the recent changes in English law, which criminalizes the clients who use victims of trafficking. (Another ridiculous law of which a grand total of 0 people have been charged with.)
And if not, don't worry, I shall come and visit you in prison :) I make lovely cake.
Relax. It hasn't been passed, it probably won't be passed and imo, they will follow the recent changes in English law, which criminalizes the clients who use victims of trafficking. (Another ridiculous law of which a grand total of 0 people have been charged with.)
And if not, don't worry, I shall come and visit you in prison :) I make lovely cake.
Don't forget to put the file into the cake
Well. Croke Park is only a hop, skip and a jump from where Ireland's original 'Red Light Distrct'
was situated before that evil bishop came in and forced the madames of the day to close up shop. What was the name of the area? It was in D3-the Montoe?...
You are a wealth of information to night and a very well educated lady well google isn't a bad thing after all only joking I grew up in Dublin and I didn't know half that stuff well done.:p
Whatever the Irish government do, they'll get it wrong. That's not just being snarky,
the fact is that their motivations are and always will be wrong - they will use the
trafficking and exploitation arguments to push through a 'one size fits all' solution
that will solve nothing. There will be the usual compromises & the overwhelming need
to placate the much vaunted moral majority (a.k.a those that vote for Fianna Fail et al)
We'll get another Irish solution to another Irish problem. Don't misunderstand me: trafficking
and exploitation of women and children are very real problems & I for one would love to see
the scum profiting from such activities hauled out & shot.
The Irish government will ignore the simple fact that people always have and always will paid for
sex. They will fail to put in place laws that make it easy for people who *choose* to provide sexual
services for money to do so in a safe way. This is because it would be too radical for Ireland, we
never have had any progressive laws on anything. Historically that is because we have always been
a church run state. That hasn't changed.
The most frustrating part is that the working model is more or less right there in front of
them, ready to be seen & recognised: allowing independent escorts to get on with their business,
advertise as they do, works. The problem is that while this behaviour remains illegal
people operating this way don't have the full protection of the law and gardai when a problem
arises.
This leaves the people working as independent escorts exposed without protection to risks including
robbery, physical and sexual assault, threats & intimidation from competitors & those attempting to
operate protection rackets, being cheated by landlords & god knows what else they have to put up with.
If legalised, independent escorts would have the ability to go to the police in such cases without fear
of conviction.
So we may have new bad short sighted and ill informed legislation to replace the current bad legislation.
This time 'round all service providers will be cast as victims and it is the customers turn to be the
criminals. Another way to push the problem underground, pretend to be dealing with it, and hide the realities
of human sexuality.
Yawn! More bullshit from the morons that "run" this country ... business as usual.
corkpunter
03-01-11, 19:55
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11437499]BBC News - Could Swedens prostitution laws work in the UK?
Norway and Denmark have followed sweden with this law.
Delegates from Sweden were here boasting about the moral mess they've made-
I'd guess we will see a similar move here.
I mean, overnight they stopped the drug industry when
they shut the head shops. :rolleyes:
This is wrong. Denmark does not use the same law as Sweden on this.
anitasizzle
03-01-11, 20:03
You are a wealth of information to night and a very well educated lady well google isn't a bad thing after all only joking I grew up in Dublin and I didn't know half that stuff well done.:p
Google is great, but you have to know what you're searching for, right:p
Just heard it on the radio and it looks like it is definatly comming into effect
Google is great, but you have to know what you're searching for, right:p
Yep that is very true and I think you do.
This is wrong. Denmark does not use the same law as Sweden on this.
thats my sleep gone tonight then...
thats my sleep gone tonight then...
mine two tune into RTE they will prob have the full story.
Ok boys, you can all take your solicitor off speed dial. It would take at least six months to a year to produce a green paper, white paper, draft legislation and then to go through the committees. As this government have only about two or three months left in office there is no chance of this legislation getting passed before the next general election and I think the new government will have more pressing worries when they do get in.
If in the future it ever makes it to greek paper stage then make sure that you make some submissions or suport some of the more liberal groups who willbe arguing for a more open approach to escorting.
Just heard it on the radio and it looks like it is definatly comming into effect
Doozer as a matter of interest what station did you hear that on our can you say.Could it be those strange voices banging around in ones head.
Doozer as a matter of interest what station did you hear that on our can you say.Could it be those strange voices banging around in ones head.
Twas newtalk at about 8ish
carlos marvado
03-01-11, 21:32
Well. Croke Park is only a hop, skip and a jump from where Ireland's original 'Red Light Distrct'
was situated before that evil bishop came in and forced the madames of the day to close up shop. What was the name of the area? It was in D3-the Montoe?...
Near enough Anita. The name Monto was taken from Montgomery Street in Dublin 1. It has since be renamed Foley Street but I heard some time ago that the old tradition still lives on there. :D:D:D
Ok boys, you can all take your solicitor off speed dial. It would take at least six months to a year to produce a green paper, white paper, draft legislation and then to go through the committees. As this government have only about two or three months left in office there is no chance of this legislation getting passed before the next general election and I think the new government will have more pressing worries when they do get in.
If in the future it ever makes it to greek paper stage then make sure that you make some submissions or suport some of the more liberal groups who willbe arguing for a more open approach to escorting.
what liberal groups?
Ok boys, you can all take your solicitor off speed dial. It would take at least six months to a year to produce a green paper, white paper, draft legislation and then to go through the committees. As this government have only about two or three months left in office there is no chance of this legislation getting passed before the next general election and I think the new government will have more pressing worries when they do get in.
If in the future it ever makes it to greek paper stage then make sure that you make some submissions or suport some of the more liberal groups who willbe arguing for a more open approach to escorting.
Ok I can c where you are coming from but look at head shops they got the boot over night if the government really wanted to could they not rush it all through.
carlos marvado
03-01-11, 21:42
Ok boys, you can all take your solicitor off speed dial. It would take at least six months to a year to produce a green paper, white paper, draft legislation and then to go through the committees. As this government have only about two or three months left in office there is no chance of this legislation getting passed before the next general election and I think the new government will have more pressing worries when they do get in.
If in the future it ever makes it to greek paper stage then make sure that you make some submissions or suport some of the more liberal groups who willbe arguing for a more open approach to escorting.
In a few weeks time we are all going to be door stepped by the great and good of Irish politics and their hangers on and lackies. I suggest that we all make it crystal clear to them that if they mess with our pursuit of ass, they can kiss their political asses good bye. :D:D:D
Twas newtalk at about 8ish
There was nothing on RTE and if it was on news talk it would be on RTE.
There was nothing on RTE and if it was on news talk it would be on RTE.
Well it was on newstalk , Im pretty sure it was the news. Check their podcasts or replays
Fair point, they could of course rush the legislation through if they wanted. But, their is a rather large difference between head shops and escorting. For one, I dont think anyone has died following a visit to an escort. Seconldy, I have never turned on the news to see a angry mob prtesting outside an escorts appartment. My point being that the head shop issue was one that had almost 100% support from the general public. They were not even natural drugs they were selling chemical compounds that were never intended for human consumtion.
Now escorting is a whole different bag of fish. It is legal to some extent in most EU countries. Ireland is very much an exception here. Also, I am not sure that 100% of teh people in this country are opposed to the legalisation of escorting.
If I was in the next government I would seriously attempt to make it legal asap. The German taxman gets over 6 billion from the industry and I am sure that teh government would be happy to take a cut from what is a sizeable industry in this country.
So, in a nutshell, this is a far more complex issue than headshops and this is why they could not rush through legislation.
Ok I can c where you are coming from but look at head shops they got the boot over night if the government really wanted to could they not rush it all through.
There was a report in the Irish Times which was quoted earlier. I watched most of the news on RTE but did not see it there. But I missed the first ten mins so it might have been there but I doubt it.
Well it was on newstalk , Im pretty sure it was the news. Check their podcasts or replays
Seriously guys Newstalk are not interested in news they are only interested in soundbites and often quote reports etc completely out of context.
For example, and this is rather different, I was listening to NT the other day and Ger Gilroy was saying that Randy Lerner told Houlier to play Richard Dunne. He quoted a report in the Daily Mail. If you read the article in teh Daily Mail there is no sign of the claims ascribed to it by Gilroy.
Dont believe everything you hear on the radio or read in the papers.
There was nothing on RTE and if it was on news talk it would be on RTE.
nicegirlsarenice
03-01-11, 21:56
I haven't read all the posts in the topic so maybe others have said this but.... I think part of the reason they say this law "works" is because the escorts themselves are getting too clever, too sophisticated and too familiar with the legal process to get caught. They also know their rights and know all the things gardai will try to pull on them. Those days when you could pull the wool over the escorts eyes are becoming a thing of the past, thanks in no small part to sites like E-I.
The punters on the other hand often don't know anything about any of this, often believe they have done something obviously and terribly illegal, will sign anything, and that's why they can get prosecutions against them a lot easier.
Well there are several but lets start with the EU. There are also a few groups who are developing at the moment but who will be rather vociferous come the next election.
what liberal groups?
In fairness NGAN this is not the reason at all.
The reason is that some dogooders do not like the thought of things like this happening in Ireland and they make the most noise. The next largest but by far the most important group are those who are lobbying to protect those hwo have been trafficed into this country and who are working against thier will as sex slaves for some very nasty bastards.
Thi
I haven't read all the posts in the topic so maybe others have said this but.... I think part of the reason they say this law "works" is because the escorts themselves are getting too clever, too sophisticated and too familiar with the legal process to get caught. They also know their rights and know all the things gardai will try to pull on them. Those days when you could pull the wool over the escorts eyes are becoming a thing of the past, thanks in no small part to sites like E-I.
The punters on the other hand often don't know anything about any of this, often believe they have done something obviously and terribly illegal, will sign anything, and that's why they can get prosecutions against them a lot easier.
If the girl think business has got bad in the recesssion,if this law comes in it will it will kill the industry,i mean girls what % of clients are business men and married,i for one would not risk it,i just be playing alot more golf abroad.
Near enough Anita. The name Monto was taken from Montgomery Street in Dublin 1. It has since be renamed Foley Street but I heard some time ago that the old tradition still lives on there. :D:D:D
There was a very old saying years ago woman would sing to men take it up to monto as I grew up in Dublin often wondered about that one but any one wondering about foley street next to James Joyce street off Talbot street you might end up on a punt down there.
skywalker85
03-01-11, 22:19
I wonder what the escorts think of this, i mean, sure regular clients won't really be put off, but what about newcomers or casual clients? and what about ladies who are new to the scene and aren't quite "trusted and reputable escorts" just yet?
on the other hand, if its made illegal that can only make it more fun right? :)
yes ofcourse laws are made to be broken :), what an even greater buzz knowing that the door may get busted in, among other things getting busted haha 2011 gona be a great year :p
do you all remember the Karen Coleman documentary about the industry on TV3?
they struggled to portray the industry in a negative, dim light.
show that again, shuffle Ruhama onto Primetime.
"New broom sweeps clean" approach by new government. oh dear :rolleyes:
skywalker85
03-01-11, 22:27
That's right......he'll be sitting at home in Co. Louth watching the tailback of cars as southern punters head north of the border.......be sure to open your window and wave all that money that the Irish economy is loosing at him.
I think such a law could have any number of effects:
Drive escorting further into the shadows and into the hands of shadowy figures.
Reduce the number of punts/spend in ROI.
Force prices down further.
Cause an outflow of escorts/stop many coming here.
Increase the number of foreign punting trips.
Sounds good all those hot escorts in the south packing up and coming north haha
the south will think its been hit by a famine if that was to happpen lol
but i sure wouldnt be complaining :)
A complete disaster for regular punters, and anyone saying otherwise is naive. The very threat of being exposed to the police, on any level, on grounds of paying for sex, carries huge problems for married punters, businessmen etc. The nonsense about burden of proof, "paying for her time" etc is all rubbish.....any contact from the police means a disaster for relationships etc. The fact that they cant trace and use phone records is very bad and essentially incriminating....i mean, what were u doing texting and calling the same escort/prostitute 3 times in a day , chatting about climate change ...?? I'm not really a punter, rather more like a bloke on the sideline, but this would stop me pretty quickly - certainly if the legislation was taken seriously by the Gardai.
skywalker85
03-01-11, 22:45
what about 'free' sex within a relationship or givin' it a tug?
What about us who dont want a relationship and are fed up giving it a tug
jus wana shag all round us, if we want to be for it well that should be up to us,
we dont tell them what to spend there money on, so i say get rid of the fuckers in power'
carlos marvado
03-01-11, 22:50
A complete disaster for regular punters, and anyone saying otherwise is naive. The very threat of being exposed to the police, on any level, on grounds of paying for sex, carries huge problems for married punters, businessmen etc. The nonsense about burden of proof, "paying for her time" etc is all rubbish.....any contact from the police means a disaster for relationships etc. The fact that they cant trace and use phone records is very bad and essentially incriminating....i mean, what were u doing texting and calling the same escort/prostitute 3 times in a day , chatting about climate change ...?? I'm not really a punter, rather more like a bloke on the sideline, but this would stop me pretty quickly - certainly if the legislation was taken seriously by the Gardai.
Good points. At the end of the day, even if you somehow beat the charge that you had paid the escort due to lack of evidence, you will still have to deal with the consequences of all the publicity that the case would attract. If it appeared in the papers that Joe Blogs, a well known businessman, professional, civil servant, clergyman or whatever had frequented the premises of a known escort/prostitute, there could be serious business, financial and personal consequences.
Sounds good all those hot escorts in the south packing up and coming north haha
the south will think its been hit by a famine if that was to happpen lol
but i sure wouldnt be complaining :)
Never really works out that way my northy friend we have been through a famine before we will get through it again but why would escorts go up north when they know the best lovers are down south.
skywalker85
03-01-11, 23:14
Never really works out that way my northy friend we have been through a famine before we will get through it again but why would escorts go up north when they know the best lovers are down south.
i thought escorts do what they do for clients to pay them for sex, never new they were looking lovers, thats new to me.
yes you's prob will get through it again, might need another bail out :) from the cells next time haha with a nice little fine.
I heard the news today and i will give my take on it.They will certainly approve of it because they will be under pressure from teh catholic church and other organisations such as ruhma etc but it will be more than likely half assed as remember escorts spend money while they are here and the gov will lose money on ppl coming to this country etc.We are a small country and if they wanted to they could stamp out drug smuggling but thay won't.Sure if the worst comes to the worst you could ask for an outcall and you would more than likely would not have problems with the cops:D.I suppose in short they may finish prostitution on the streets but what happens inside they may find it harder to implement these new laws....
I heard the news today and i will give my take on it.They will certainly approve of it because they will be under pressure from teh catholic church and other organisations such as ruhma etc but it will be more than likely half assed as remember escorts spend money while they are here and the gov will lose money on ppl coming to this country etc.We are a small country and if they wanted to they could stamp out drug smuggling but thay won't.Sure if the worst comes to the worst you could ask for an outcall and you would more than likely would not have problems with the cops:D.I suppose in short they may finish prostitution on the streets but what happens inside they may find it harder to implement these new laws....
you're an optimist and thats good! why do they allow the drugs to come in?
they could deploy female gardai to your crib? and not uniformed :cool:
nicegirlsarenice
04-01-11, 00:01
You are 100% full of shit herodotus and don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
Your "reasons" aren't reasons at all, all you did was throw a load of meaningless adjectives and nouns together about who is supposedly behind all of this, nothing to do with contradicting my point.
You might as well have said that the price of tea in China has gone up in recent years, and it would have proved your point as much.
There is no "sex slavery" in Ireland, or if there was it would be about 1 in 1000. You are just falling for the common myths and misconceptions which the gardai themselves have proven are false. These laws have NOTHING to do with that, they are about prosecuting ALL males that go to these women.
All of these people want one thing: Shut down prostitution. And the best way of doing that is by prosecuting and getting at people to prevent that. Look at what they even say themselves in the report:
It is almost impossible for gardaí to prosecute those involved in that end of the trade because of its covert nature.
However, a new law introducing a clear ban on the purchase of sex would greatly aid the Garda in that regard. It would mean any evidence, such as telephone records, that emerged linking a client to a prostitute or a brothel could be used to prosecute.
They practically admit it themselves.... the operations are getting too covert and too good to be caught. There are no nefarious "nasty men" behind all of this, it's a WELL-KNOWN FACT that practically all of the women involved are doing it of their own free will.
Please don't talk to me or comment on my posts again.
You are 100% full of shit herodotus and don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
There is no "sex slavery" in Ireland, or if there was it would be about 1 in 1000. You are just falling for the common myths and misconceptions which the gardai themselves have proven are false. These laws have NOTHING to do with that, they are about prosecuting ALL males that go to these women.
They practically admit it themselves.... the operations are getting too covert and too good to be caught. There are no nefarious "nasty men" behind all of this, it's a WELL-KNOWN FACT that practically all of the women involved are doing it of their own free will.
Please don't talk to me or comment on my posts again.
If you really think there is no sex slavery in ireland you are deluded.Trafficking has been going on for years and if you think that nearly all are doing it of their own free will is laughable...
you're an optimist and thats good! why do they allow the drugs to come in?
they could deploy female gardai to your crib?
I try:D:D:D
nicegirlsarenice
04-01-11, 00:09
If it does exist then it's to a very, very small extent.
The girls obviously know that they are to say or do this, this and this if the gardai talk to them.
The punters won't know shit about what to do for the most part.
That is why, because it's easier to prosecute. That's what it even says right there in the paper. If someone wants to criticize me for something then criticize me for being Captain Obvious in that post.
prettywoman
04-01-11, 00:16
Now, now nicegirlsara... can we pls tone it down and not offend other members.... remember provocation is not allowed!!!
this is for your other post where you said to someone they are full of ...
Franken996
04-01-11, 08:47
If you want to examine the impact of the Swedish law, it makes for interesting reading-
Evaluating the Swedish Ban on the Purchase of Sexual Services: The Anna Skarhed Report | Nordic Prostitution Policy Reform (http://nppr.se/2010/07/02/evaluating-the-swedish-ban-on-the-purchase-of-sexual-services-the-anna-skarhed-report/)
(this is heavily skewed towards the ban side but the devil is in the detail ...),
The intent of such a legal chance is very well intentioned.. Even if the particular proposed execution is ham fisted. Prostitution has not decreased in Sweden since the new law (as admitted by the authorities) although street trade has all but disappeared - leading to a (suspected) paradox that trafficking may in fact have increased slightly!
The latter is based on anecdotal observation as it's de facto almost impossible to monitor....which raises the question if the real underlying motive isn't a simple morality crusade.
I heard something on the radio last night that Sweden has seen a reduction in their sex industry but an increase in sex crime and an increase in violence against escorts.
It was claimed many normal clients were frightened off leaving only the weirdos in many cases.
hornylimerick
04-01-11, 10:02
I heard something on the radio last night that Sweden has seen a reduction in their sex industry but an increase in sex crime and an increase in violence against escorts.
It was claimed many normal clients were frightened off leaving only the weirdos in many cases.
more laws usually make things worse, all it does is force things underground, all vices should be legalised IMO
more laws usually make things worse, all it does is force things underground, all vices should be legalised IMO
all vices should be legal for those who want them made legal, and illegal for those who don't - i think Bill Hicks said that
more laws usually make things worse, all it does is force things underground, all vices should be legalised IMO
I totally agree with you it pushes the criminal element out .
When it is legalised taxes are paid and the industry is regulated.
I totally agree with you it pushes the criminal element out .
When it is legalised taxes are paid and the industry is regulated.
I know this makes sense, but I see the amount of stupid unnecessary paperwork I've to deal with and I see my skin crawl at the thought of more regulation.
This country is being destroyed with rules, regulations and nonsense
we should be made apply for a licence to work like a taxi driver
to ensure we have checks done
to ensure we are not trafficed
to ensure there are no pimps etc
it would be much easier to control and you would have less fakes and trafficed wemon and underage girls working
And of course issue receipts.
And pay rates, a you would be operating a commercial premises.
And have a disabled toilet.
And have paperwork proving condoms are disposed of properly.
And have yearly checks on your heating, with of course the relevant paperwork.
And vat returns, paye returns, yearly returns, we want to catch you out returns.
Not to mention all the environmental bullshit they dream up.
And on and on....
Why should your business be different to the rest of us?
I'd also say health and safety would have a field day, crowd of tossers that they are.
carlos marvado
04-01-11, 12:51
we should be made apply for a licence to work like a taxi driver
to ensure we have checks done
to ensure we are not trafficed
to ensure there are no pimps etc
it would be much easier to control and you would have less fakes and trafficed wemon and underage girls working
Completely concur. An annual licence fee to operate as a sole trader escort, maybe paid in lieu of taxation, or even as was introduced recently in one German city, a fee of 6 Euro per day.
Hell if the German taxpayers are being expected to fund our Gobshite administration, reciprocity would suggest that we should run our affairs the way they do it there.
so if a guy needs a ride-he must seek this through relating?
it may take sometime-he may have to disguise his real needs from
his partner and end up causing lots of hassle...:rolleyes:
wellhungchap
04-01-11, 15:56
fuck it, ive a record as long as me cock, i play by my own rules, no one elses, not even my own:cop:
I know this makes sense, but I see the amount of stupid unnecessary paperwork I've to deal with and I see my skin crawl at the thought of more regulation.
This country is being destroyed with rules, regulations and nonsense
I c your point all right but at least the industry will be there for us to enjoy.
If the right people went in it might be run properly and fairly.
I don't like regulation either but isn't nice to have something we all enjoy then not to have it.
Newry and Enniskillen will become goodtime zones.
I might return to Amsterdam-tis nice in the spring...
this law has been operating in scandanavia for years men get fined 1 months salary for visiting escorts and have to go to court and have names and pictures printed in the paper
the time and companionship crap does not stand up in court and condoms in bin and a watch of premises as well as adverts,and items ladies carry in luggage are used in court as well as escorts pictures from web are used to prosecute they also use hotel staff as witness and neighbours of private apartments as witness as well as the escort who if she lies in court is also prosecuted
it has made scandanavian men very hesitant to visit escorts as the law was was bought in to protect trafficked and foreign ladies but the net catches all men visiting all escorts no matter where they are from even if they visit a native lady and caught they are still prosecuted
whilst the amount of men visiting escorts has not decreased in scandanavia the amount of caught and fined is considerable
i for hope this law is not passed in ireland the sex purchase law in scandanavia has ruined marriages and lost guys there jobs so heres hoping the irish law is not passed
yasxx
The problem is the knee-jerk reaction that the politicians and public have to the subject of prostitution. We are either crack-hos in need of sympathy and counseling, or we are Belle Du Jour-making thousands a day and living the high life. Both stereotypes are true in some instances but not in all cases. It is singularly impossible for joe-public to grasp that a woman would willingly or voluntarily want to have sex with a man for money of her own free will; which leads to these stupid pointless laws that causes grief to everyone involved. It in my opinion will happen, because it will be seen as 'doing something' to stop the tide and influx of trafficked and underage women being brought in by the bus loads to work as prostitutes in Ireland. Which is ridiculous, but then again this is why governments exist.
The article i read suggested it was to protect against rape in agencies, allegedly by pimps etc. Am i being naive or is this hugely exaggerated? Any girls on the site who used to work in an agency/brothel?
It is singularly impossible for joe-public to grasp that a woman would willingly or voluntarily want to have sex with a man for money of her own free will
I still have difficulty grasping that concept Violette, but have had some great fun trying to come to terms with it ;)
Thank heaven for E-I and the beautiful women therein :)
sweethomes
04-01-11, 17:32
it has made scandanavian men very hesitant to visit escorts - no they just take their business over the border ...
and the same will happen in north ireland , klapping hands and jumping in joy is the fading sexindustry in ireland
Germany s law on prostituition is not ideal , but at least they try . That will not happen in Northireland within the next years , it took holland for instance decades to get a good balance into business ! But it will get there , until then ... Good luck!
charlottebabe
04-01-11, 18:47
It will never work. In Sweden it has just driven drug/street girls underground and made matters worse. Saw a TV programme about it last year. I seem to remember very few men have been prosecuted, the police have more important issues to deal with. (Unless of course the offence is with under age people or trafficed people).
Knowing this country they'll ignore the important issues and probably fine us in yet another way to screw money out of us
carlos marvado
04-01-11, 19:05
Knowing this country they'll ignore the important issues and probably fine us in yet another way to screw money out of us
Some economic genius has probably told them that if men can still afford to pay for sex, they are ripe for paying the nice fines that this proposed legislation would entail.
They're screwing the middle class, the working class, the unemployed, the kids, the sick, the excluded........so it probably makes sense that they should try to screw the screwers also. :D:D:D
anitasizzle
04-01-11, 19:05
If the law does go into effect, escorts can become licensed massage therapits, and clients can then say they were paying for a VIP massage service-the whole nature of the business will, once again, be up-rooted, but if we have to go back to the Age of the Massage parlour then so be it
sweethomes
04-01-11, 19:09
Maybee I will start to take alternativ payments then :p, I will think something up , if it ever comes to that .
Knowing this country they'll ignore the important issues and probably fine us in yet another way to screw money out of us
Yep that's a very good point more money coming in to pay off the IMF.
Shooting fish in a barrel.
If the law does go into effect, escorts can become licensed massage therapits, and clients can then say they were paying for a VIP massage service-the whole nature of the business will, once again, be up-rooted, but if we have to go back to the Age of the Massage parlour then so be it
You not just a pretty face you a clever girl as well that's something worth looking at.
carlos marvado
04-01-11, 19:47
If the law does go into effect, escorts can become licensed massage therapits, and clients can then say they were paying for a VIP massage service-the whole nature of the business will, once again, be up-rooted, but if we have to go back to the Age of the Massage parlour then so be it
While it's a good point and the gardai might have difficulting proving that a client payed for and received a sexual service rather then a "pure" massage, it would not be unknown for the gardai to try and exert pressure, plus the publicity would still be there if it went to trial.
anitasizzle
04-01-11, 20:06
You not just a pretty face you a clever girl as well that's something worth looking at.
I've already did the research, when the time comes, I'll be able to take heath insurance:p
anitasizzle
04-01-11, 20:27
While it's a good point and the gardai might have difficulting proving that a client payed for and received a sexual service rather then a "pure" massage, it would not be unknown for the gardai to try and exert pressure, plus the publicity would still be there if it went to trial.
If the authorities are worried that underaged, or trafficked girls are in the business then a massage license issued by the State would help relieve that worry.
Married or attached men could account for over 50% of punters, for them it doesnt matter weather or not the gardai secure a conviction in court. For them the damage is already done, the summons was delivered to their partner while they were out working, phone and internet records will provide evidence, while the reviews you left prove the girl you were caught with wasnt the only girl you enjoy favorites with. I wouldnt be surprised if this bill is rushed through before fina fail are f*cked out of government, they are so desperate they are liable to do anything.
if there's a pressure group (the ICI) supporting this bill, why not form another pressure group to oppose it? the fact that its an unregulated industry with lucrative revenue potential could swing it.
if there's a pressure group (the ICI) supporting this bill, why not form another pressure group to oppose it? the fact that its an unregulated industry with lucrative revenue potential could swing it.
Well there's been a petition (linked on this site) to give independent escorts the basic legal status, rights, & protection to which they are naturally entitled. Who has signed it?
anitasizzle
05-01-11, 01:40
Well there's been a petition (linked on this site) to give independent escorts the basic legal status, rights, & protection to which they are naturally entitled. Who has signed it?
Hmmm, since you put it that way....:blackeye: I guess I shouldn't dust off my diploma just yet;)
corkpunter
05-01-11, 02:01
this law has been operating in scandanavia for years men get fined 1 months salary for visiting escorts and have to go to court and have names and pictures printed in the paper
the time and companionship crap does not stand up in court and condoms in bin and a watch of premises as well as adverts,and items ladies carry in luggage are used in court as well as escorts pictures from web are used to prosecute they also use hotel staff as witness and neighbours of private apartments as witness as well as the escort who if she lies in court is also prosecuted
it has made scandanavian men very hesitant to visit escorts as the law was was bought in to protect trafficked and foreign ladies but the net catches all men visiting all escorts no matter where they are from even if they visit a native lady and caught they are still prosecuted
whilst the amount of men visiting escorts has not decreased in scandanavia the amount of caught and fined is considerable
i for hope this law is not passed in ireland the sex purchase law in scandanavia has ruined marriages and lost guys there jobs so heres hoping the irish law is not passed
yasxx
Only 2 of 4 countries has this, Sweden and Norway. Denmark and Finland hasn't. In Denmark it is legal for instance.
A crime is still a crime. It is the law. If they catch you buying, you're basically toast.
I used to go with several escorts, but now I pick one and stay with that one only. We actually pretend that we are lovers. We know exactly what we wanted from each other.
This legislation will prevent punters from trying out new escorts. It will make them stick to the ones that they are used to and those that they've gained trust.
New punters will be afraid to try out. But I don't think it will prevent them from trying.....