View Full Version : Round 4
Heard on the grapevine that the next JOC Meeting is on this wednesday 6th . Any news on the participants ? Rumours of the Gardai , Pye Jakobbsson and a few of our parishoners here - any confirmations ?
The Equalizer
04-02-13, 22:40
Next JOC Meeting is scheduled for 06/02/2013 at 2 pm as per Oireachtas Schedule
(Link: http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=22751&&CatID=60)
Those in attendance:
Mr Paul Maguire.
Representatives of An Garda Siochana.
There is no mention of Pye Jakobbsson or any other Sex Workers, however that doesn't mean there wont be any Sex Workers at the Meeting.
Half Man and Half Dildo
04-02-13, 23:15
Has anyone found out the reasoning behind the decision to hold this session in private? Will future sessions be held in private too?
the traveller
05-02-13, 06:43
Public session starts from 3-15 p.m.
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 08:11
You are distorting the truth to suit your woo is me thing you seem to have going on right now.
Funny thing, Rachel is one of the very few people I have never really caught out distorting the truth about anything. Far too blunt for most people's liking if anything.
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 08:18
The guy from prime time invited to those hearings is a Ruhama stooge, he said on the program that while some women choose to do prostitution, the majority do not.
I have a complaint formally acknowledged by the committee about that. It was a shoddy tabloid documentary made for a series that had already been cancelled due to an absence of integrity. It only aired because it was already pretty much in the can, had cost money and would attract ratings.
For their next trick they will have Paul Reynolds in at that rate.
Incidentally the only reason for the week's delay is that several committees cancelled to attend the funeral of that poor guard that was murdered.
the traveller
05-02-13, 09:51
Fully agree with you Brock, it's a disgrace that these organisations are even give air time let alone a significant role in any legislation. All this on the day when the Mcaleese report is due out.
Magdalene laundries == A religious answer to a secular problem.
TORL == A secular answer to a religious problem.
And all with the compliance of the Irish state
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 10:03
Take two steps back Brock...can you honestly say you would pay any attention to a documentary about something you had little interest in and knew nothing about that was that one sided?
I have a bit more faith in the common sense and intelligence of ordinary people than that. The only credibility that documentary has is in the way TORL and now the Justice Committee are hyping it...
THEY BROADCAST FILM OF WOMEN IN A STATE OF UNDRESS WITHOUT PERMISSION!
But they did not once ask them if they would like to make a statement through an interpreter - they just interpreted their reactions to being confronted by an (apparent) messer with nutcase potential asking them if they were trafficked and giving them cards for Ruhama that most escorts know to avoid at all costs - and why.
The RTE Primetime team treated sex workers as animals, not people...
Rachel Divine
05-02-13, 10:12
They will show how sex workers answer the phone for a booking , which is discreet ,there is no issue, or is it?!
The girls "pimped" are getting in the car, moving around on free will, I havent seen any of them forced to do so .. That guy accused to be the pimp, in any moment was approached by the police, only the girls were in trouble.
The xxx agency, or whatever was called , again , nothing of coercing there.
I wonder what the Committee have in mind about agencies , now illegal..
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 10:47
They will show how sex workers answer the phone for a booking , which is discreet ,there is no issue, or is it?!
The girls "pimped" are getting in the car, moving around on free will, I havent seen any of them forced to do so .. That guy accused to be the pimp, in any moment was approached by the police, only the girls were in trouble.
The xxx agency, or whatever was called , again , nothing of coercing there.
I wonder what the Committee have in mind about agencies , now illegal..
You know, I was going around the supermarkets next day with my Uncle pointing out ordinary, everyday scenes we could film and pass off as evidence of "trafficking" there were an unlimited amount...
It is all an art an science that can be learned...
You could film you and I RIGHT NOW...typing, as we are, where we are (in the Penney's PJs :D or worse) and, depending on the editing and voice over, present the same footage as evidence that we are:
Modern saints in the making
Involved in international espionage
X factor contestants
About to give birth
Your choice
Politicians are supposed to be politicians because they are AT LEAST smart enough to see through that game.
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 11:15
Decriminalising street work is just obvious and humane...
It requires no investment, and is far more suitable for survival and crisis sex workers than indoor work (cos, apart from anything else, if they had the money to invest they likely wouldn't be in crisis, would they?).
That being so, why land them with criminal records that mean they will never be able to stop selling sex and do something else whatever? That is just crazy...and I am really, seriously sick of the school of thought that tries to suggest that unless you are selling sex just because you *LURVE* f*cking different guys all day you DESERVE to be handed over to Ruhama for Sonderbe handlung - because when you and your family are desperate and in crisis that LAST thing you need is to be left at the mercy of a crowd of ruthless, exploitative headcases on a mission AS WELL.
Beyond that, it is something Ruhama have always used (since 1993) to try and buy support from the street workers...they promised to fight for decriminalisation...and now they try to tell them that the new law is only intended to get rid of the foreign women so they can make more money.
(NB They wouldn't, by any chance be making *less* money because, due to recession the supply of voluntary adult sex workers is beginning to outstrip demand at all levels now, would they? Because the gospel according to Ruhama states that there are not even enough voluntary sex workers to supply 20% of the demand.)
Also, you would not buy much support from Labour and related lobbies by coming out to criminalise sex workers.
But, here is the thing...if it succeeds (which is surely the intention, realistic or not) the Swedish Model "ends the demand".
Sex workers go on working in Iran and the Emirates, despite the death penalty, *because they need the money* (the only person who would risk a death penalty to make a point about sexual autonomy is a nutter I am afraid :eek:) and they can GET the money through sex work.
The Swedish model *aims* (though it has never, yet succeeded) to stop them being able to make any money, however much they need it, for however worthy a cause.
So the intention is to decriminalise them and take their incomes away. Ruhama added in a scary dimension whereby landlords will have real cause to be afraid to rent premises to sex workers EVEN AS A FAMILY HOME (who in their right mind will risk a prison sentence hanging on a tenant being scrupulously honest at all times when they can rent to someone else instead?).
Ruhama simply want to make as many sex workers as possible, as desperate, vulnerable and hopeless as possible so they can siphon up massive funds for "rescuing" them by pulling them into rigidly controlled residential centres (Sonas housing is perilously close to being an open prison in terms of control already) and indoctrinating them in whatever half baked quasi feminist philosophy is all the fashion this year...
They will probably add in a few "supported employment" schemes too...
...and they will have their laundries back, updated for the 21st century...
The really couldn't care less what happens to the other women they fail to make desperate enough to be able to use as cash cows.
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 12:29
Brock you are missing all points...
Ruhama have been trying to buy street workers' support since 1994 by offering to fight for decriminalisation of street work (which IS necessary on some level).
They are not claiming to want to decriminalise anything else.
As for "rushing" it...Ruhama have been at this craic since AT LEAST 2005...you can't blame them if the sex industry have been too tardy about getting their fingers out until now...
But it doesn't matter, because people ARE up on their feet and fighting now...
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 13:06
(1) Street prostitution is illegal.
(2) Private lone escort prostitution is legal.
Ruhama say they want to decriminalise prostitution, well since one aspect of prostitution is not criminalised, theres nothing to decriminalise.
Labelle, you must realise that not all prostitution takes place on the street, its not wise to conflate outdoor and indoor prostitution when one is illegal and the other legal within certain settings.
Not all sex workers are doing it in crisis mode. Some say they have other options, yet still choose prostitution because simply its more profitable.
Don't be silly, as long as one aspect of sex work is criminalised there is OBVIOUSLY something to decriminalise. :rolleyes:
...and I think any suggestion of dividing the issues and sacrificing sex workers BECAUSE they are in "crisis mode" is as nasty as anything Ruhama ever dream up...perhaps even nastier...
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 13:40
Labelle by you also conflating both together, you come across a spokesperson for them. Hmm.
Don't be even sillier Brock.
...and never fail to notice that *I* have serious issues with anyone who intends to throw the streetworkers to the Ruhama wolves to save themselves, because that is just rotten and wrong. :D
Funny thing, Rachel is one of the very few people I have never really caught out distorting the truth about anything. Far too blunt for most people's liking if anything.
Whole heartedly agree with LaBelleThatcher. To go on television and defend her right to sex work in Ireland at present allows those of us who are forced to live in the shadows to "HOPE" her action will help. It also begs the question what about clients both male/ female doing something similar...
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 15:06
Do you acknowledge that street prostitution is relatively small compared to indoor prostitution?
I can't very well, because it isn't... :D
You would want to realise that *ALL* (not just some) of the stuff Ruhama get into the papers is total bolax.
Except for the fact that far more are non-nationals there is not a significant difference in socio economic class or educational level between the women I see here and streetworkers I have known in 3 countries over 40 years...to say anything else is an insult to a LOT of women. The only women Ruhama can cajole into supporting them tend to be pretty low in a more generic sense.
The biggest difference is that the streetworkers usually hate the work but need the money - HANDS UP anyone who has never been glad to do work they hated because they needed the money at some point? The one BIG advantage of sex work is that it takes much less time and leave you free to explore other options.
Taking the income away from someone who needs the money badly enough to do something they hate is absolutely monstrous and beyond justification...as it amounts to arbitrarily cutting the rug out from under people who are already desperate...and desperation is not a crime for which anyone deserves to be sentenced to the control and lunacy of Ruhama.
It is most important that people who NEED the money from honest, decent, sex work not be subject to any form of let or hindrance in the form of criminalisation to themselves, or negative manipulation of the available demand through criminalisation of the clients.
Once that is established it becomes hard to sustain a position that supports a right based on need but not the same right based on choice
Once the above are established it becomes impossible to sustain a position that people may not buy that which is freely offered to them
LaBelleThatcher
05-02-13, 16:32
Whether sex workers hate sex work or not is totally irrelevant to rights and legislation...that is just the trap Ruhama set up for you to fall into. You cannot evidence how people feel.
As in rape, all that matters is whether they give informed consent or not.
Criminalising the client (anywhere) with a view to "ending the demand" is a deliberate attempt to deny sex workers the right to earn.
It is unlikely any sex workers consent to that.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 10:03
Not all aspects of prostitution are criminalised though, thats what you need to understand, you can not decriminalise something thats not criminalised, e.g. lone escorts operating in private settings.
Again, you are conflating indoor prostitution with outdoor prostitution. Thats why some escorts from E-I have taken issue with you for that in previous debates.
Under the law, private indoor prostitution consisting of lone escorts operating alone is clearly differentiated with street prostitution, its not wise to always talk of different aspects of the sex trade as being all the same from a legal context.
Also about Ruhama, you are wrong. They have called for decriminalisation.
Quotes from article.
Watch Benson (Ruhama CEO) in action there.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/ruhama-calls-for-respect-dignity-2621792.html
Sir -- I am writing in response to Jim Cusack's piece,
Mr Cusack's article references Ruhama's "attempts to outlaw female prostitution" and a "total ban on sex workers".
We call for the decriminalisation of those who sell sex in Ireland in recognition of the fact that this is already a stigmatised and vulnerable group.
Bensons (ruhamas) argument is misleading because lone private escorts operating in an indoor setting are not criminalised for selling sexual services. There is nothing to decriminalise there, because they are not criminalised.
She conflates legal indoor prostitution with illegal outdoor prostitution and wants them to be seen as the same thing under the law, when in fact they are not.
Labelle by you also conflating both together, you come across a spokesperson for them. Hmm.
Excellent points.
saoirsemac
06-02-13, 10:21
well i geniue didnt think there was more outdoor workers
considering know areas now are not populated,
dublin usual as 300 odd escorts, where are the 300 odd street workers?
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 10:23
well i geniue didnt think there was more outdoor workers
considering know areas now are not populated,
dublin usual as 300 odd escorts, where are the 300 odd street workers?
Where did those figures come from?
saoirsemac
06-02-13, 10:27
Where did those figures come from?
sorry u right, there is currently 273 escorts advertised for dublin
labelle is telling us that outdoor are not infact the minorty of sex workers
so using dublin as an example it wud indicate there is over that mark of outdoor workers
now i run late at night phoneix park on the quays merrion square all the old hot spots, and im baffled at where there hiding
maybe the areas have changed, but i find it difficult to believe there possaible more outdoor workers
not a dig now, but a geniue idea, show them ei they make more money inside with bathrooms and warm beds,
in the modern day of technogoly u think they cop on a bit
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 10:28
sorry u right, there is currently 273 escorts advertised for dublin
labelle is telling us that outdoor are not infact the minorty of sex workers
so using dublin as an example it wud indicate there is over that mark of outdoor workers
now i run late at night phoneix park on the quays merrion square all the old hot spots, and im baffled at where there hiding
maybe the areas have changed, but i find it difficult to believe there possaible more outdoor workers
not a dig now, but a geniue idea, show them ei they make more money inside with bathrooms and warm beds,
in the modern day of technogoly u think they cop on a bit
It's easy to check. Find the figures for the ladies arrested for loitering for the purposes of prostitution. I would be suprised if it was more than 150 for the entire country.
saoirsemac
06-02-13, 10:34
It's easy to check. Find the figures for the ladies arrested for loitering for the purposes of prostitution. I would be suprised if it was more than 150 for the entire country.
well i wouldnt go by that either, as garda usual get them to move on, esp dublin there told blind eye it a bit
but still, im sorry i just dont get in there era of the internet and mobile phones u go on the street selling cheap,
and if u saying its coz there desprate, and uneducated etc and dont like it, why not aim to improve there working conditions
plus i read alot of books about street work, didnt the days of indublin magazine, bring about the era of brothels and thus reduced the numbers of prostitues on the street, wasnt sensational books either but written by a real sex worker,
i think it was form the 90s that the number reduced as more women choose indoors
but lebelle worked the streets and wud know better than i there, but i wish she respect when it comes to indoor its slightly different
i do not think they are the same
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 10:40
well i wouldnt go by that either, as garda usual get them to move on, esp dublin there told blind eye it a bit
but still, im sorry i just dont get in there era of the internet and mobile phones u go on the street selling cheap,
and if u saying its coz there desprate, and uneducated etc and dont like it, why not aim to improve there working conditions
plus i read alot of books about street work, didnt the days of indublin magazine, bring about the era of brothels and thus reduced the numbers of prostitues on the street, wasnt sensational books either but written by a real sex worker,
i think it was form the 90s that the number reduced as more women choose indoors
but lebelle worked the streets and wud know better than i there, but i wish she respect when it comes to indoor its slightly different
i do not think they are the same
They aren't the same. Street workers needs are far different to ours, ladies who work the street are also historically in a far more vulnerable position. Tolerance zones and outreach would be the way to go for them if they are to be reached properly and effectively.
I wil find the relevant figures any way and bring them to the meeting. See you there. I'm out now, I see that these threads have a designated purpose and its nothing I want to be a part of.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 11:37
well i geniue didnt think there was more outdoor workers
considering know areas now are not populated,
dublin usual as 300 odd escorts, where are the 300 odd street workers?
Strangely enough there always were about 1000 countrywide...it's deceptive, until you actually do a head count...
The vast majority of streetworkers have no more time for Ruhama than anyone here...can't stand them...and Ruhama claim to interact with about 300 (I think?) a year.
What is not under dispute at all is that by far the majority of streetworkers are native Irish ladies, and that has to count for something.
But it doesn't matter...if there were only 10 streetworkers in the country THEY WOULD STILL HAVE THE SAME MORAL RIGHT TO LIVE AND WORK AS THEY CHOOSE AS ANYONE HERE...
Wouldn't they?
:D
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 11:42
It's easy to check. Find the figures for the ladies arrested for loitering for the purposes of prostitution. I would be suprised if it was more than 150 for the entire country.
Well there are only a handful of prosecutions for running an agency every year...but that is hardly representative of the realty, is it?
As for Dublin, Ruhama claim to interact with 300 or so a year in Dublin and most of them won't go near Ruhama so, even allowing for Ruhama being creative with the figures there may be even more than 1000 countrywide (three main centres, Dublin, Limerick and Cork and activity in other towns besides.)
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 11:46
Sorry, that should be Ruhama interacting with about 70 (I think it's safe to assume their casework figures are included in outreach figures, don't you? :rolleyes: as well as a few "in for the pot")
http://www.ruhama.ie/easyedit/files/2010statsreportruhama.pdf
Which, considering the way most streetworkers feel about them (at best considering them a perishing nuisance not to be encouraged) seems about right for an environment of 300 or so workers.
(I think Ruhama have a set of figures somewhere where they claim to have interacted with a total of about 300 over some period which is probably adding up the same people every year).
Rachel Divine
06-02-13, 11:52
Why the lot of you focus on escorts and not the context of the client to be made a criminal if he buys sex?
Every escort knows better how she works, what is good for her and what she would want to change in that context, 2 sharing to not be a brothel case and the client to not be a criminal under the law.
Ebony Amber
06-02-13, 11:59
Why the lot of you focus on escorts and not the context of the client to be made a criminal if he buys sex?
I think people are foucusing on the difference between indoor and outdoor escorts because the point they are trying to make is whilst street workers should of course have rights, their clients are already criminalised! So for the sake of the proposed legislations it makes sense to focus on indoor prostitution as those clients are the ones they are trying to criminalise.
I think the difference between the two need to be made clear as street prostitution is already illegal. Should it be- thats a whole new topic but I feel this new law is directed at indoor workers clients.
Rachel Divine
06-02-13, 12:05
So, we should agree with street workers clients to remain "criminals" ..
Somehow I have the feeling here is no empathy towards street sex workers because we are higher class hookers :D
Nice representation eh ...
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 12:13
I think people are foucusing on the difference between indoor and outdoor escorts because the point they are trying to make is whilst street workers should of course have rights, their clients are already criminalised! So for the sake of the proposed legislations it makes sense to focus on indoor prostitution as those clients are the ones they are trying to criminalise.
I think the difference between the two need to be made clear as street prostitution is already illegal. Should it be- thats a whole new topic but I feel this new law is directed at indoor workers clients.
Actually you are right in one way, and wrong in another...
In ADDITION to all their other crap, Ruhama are campaigning for streetworkers to be decriminalised...which is an essential...and echoes the 1993 legislation where streetworkers were criminalised as a footnote to a law that decriminalised homosexuals...traps people into voting for the whole act.
Ruhama are trying to set up a similar situation where a vote AGAINST the criminalisation of clients is a vote to continue the criminalisation of street workers. Bundling a good thing with a bad thing either way.
(As things stand, only soliciting and loitering are criminalised ANYWAY not the actual sale, or purchase of sex, which changes things. The Gardai have tried to use the existing laws to prosecute clients for the very first time in the past couple of years.)
It goes without saying that, however decriminalised they may be, street workers will not be able to get the income they need with all resources permanently thrown at their clients EVEN if they are not caught soliciting.
Considering so many streetworkers are crisis and survival sexworkers (which tends to mean perfectly normal, capable, people who have had more sh*t thrown at them than anyone should who were too strong to be destroyed by it) anyone who is too self centred to be concerned about that is not worth my time.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 12:17
So, we should agree with street workers clients to remain "criminals" ..
Somehow I have the feeling here is no empathy towards street sex workers because we are higher class hookers :D
Nice representation eh ...
Everybody seems to need to look down on someone to feel better about themselves. A lot of streetworkers look down on escorts too...I just can't stand that kind of silly snobbery whoever comes out with it.
I couldn't stand working indoors because of all the bitchiness and office politics and the fact that the guys always expected more than I was comfortable giving. A lot of people feel that way.
I removed posts that were personal from this thread.
Whatever is happening behind scenes should be discussed in private. I won't ask again.
Thanks
Ebony Amber
06-02-13, 12:26
So, we should agree with street workers clients to remain "criminals" ..
Somehow I have the feeling here is no empathy towards street sex workers because we are higher class hookers :D
Nice representation eh ...
Your clearly failing to understand what is being said. I'll simplify for you.
* The proposed laws make clients visiting an escort illegal.
* However visiting a street escort is ALREADY illegal. Thus the proposed law makes no difference to the legaility of visiting them.
Nobody is talking about who is high class or even giving there opinion om whether street work should be illegal. If there is a fight about whether street work should be legal it's a totally different thing.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 12:32
Well there are only a handful of prosecutions for running an agency every year...but that is hardly representative of the realty, is it?
As for Dublin, Ruhama claim to interact with 300 or so a year in Dublin and most of them won't go near Ruhama so, even allowing for Ruhama being creative with the figures there may be even more than 1000 countrywide (three main centres, Dublin, Limerick and Cork and activity in other towns besides.)
I would think that a lady loitering for the purposes of prostitution, on street would be somewhat easier to prosecute than a pimp. I'm not sure why agencies are continually mentioned in these posts, unless to try and muddy the waters.
Ebony Amber
06-02-13, 12:35
Also there is no snobbery here. Street worker, indoor worker or bloody cloud worker. All humans have rights. I just feel the legislation proposed and the decriminalisation of street work are 2 seperate thins here.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 12:35
Everybody seems to need to look down on someone to feel better about themselves. A lot of streetworkers look down on escorts too...I just can't stand that kind of silly snobbery whoever comes out with it.
I couldn't stand working indoors because of all the bitchiness and office politics and the fact that the guys always expected more than I was comfortable giving. A lot of people feel that way.
This isn't about looking down on anyone. To try and make it so is ridiculous. One thing is already illegal, the other isn't. Simples
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 12:38
* However visiting a street escort is ALREADY illegal.
No, it isn't...
*SOLICITING* or Loitering for a streetworker is illegal...visiting one is as legal as you popping over for coffee...
So, as things stand, a street worker (or client) can only be prosecuted for advertising...but not if found in the act of exchanging sexual services for money...which is a huge practical difference.
There is one more factor which you will IGNORE AT YOUR COLLECTIVE PERIL.
Escorts are mostly migrant workers...in effect, coming here just to take money out of the economy. During any recession there is always an huge upsurge of resentment against migrant workers and well as in disgusting stuff like xenophobia and outright racism.
Most street workers are Irish...freeing and releasing Irish money into the Irish economy.
Any attempt to promote the rights of migrant workers over native Irish workers is joint PR and political suicide, for ANY issue, not just sex work.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 12:42
No, it isn't...
*SOLICITING* or Loitering for a streetworker is illegal...visiting one is as legal as you popping over for coffee...
So, as things stand, a street worker (or client) can only be prosecuted for advertising...but not if found in the act of exchanging sexual services for money...which is a huge practical difference.
There is one more factor which you will IGNORE AT YOUR COLLECTIVE PERIL.
Escorts are mostly migrant workers...in effect, coming here just to take money out of the economy. During any recession there is always an huge upsurge of resentment against migrant workers and well as in disgusting stuff like xenophobia and outright racism.
Most street workers are Irish...freeing and releasing Irish money into the Irish economy.
Any attempt to promote the rights of migrant workers over native Irish workers is joint PR and political suicide, for ANY issue, not just sex work.
This post makes no sense. Kerb crawling is an offence. Loitering for the purposes of is an offence, the 14 limerick men in the honey trap were not prosecuted for flower arranging.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 12:43
Also there is no snobbery here. Street worker, indoor worker or bloody cloud worker. All humans have rights. I just feel the legislation proposed and the decriminalisation of street work are 2 seperate thins here.
Well unfortunately Ruhama have inversely conflated them now...so you are stuck with it for the duration.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 12:46
I would think that a lady loitering for the purposes of prostitution, on street would be somewhat easier to prosecute than a pimp. I'm not sure why agencies are continually mentioned in these posts, unless to try and muddy the waters.
Simply a valid, and relevant example of the vast gulf of difference between occurrence and prosecution...even allowing for the fact that it is easier to prosecute street workers than agencies. :D
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 12:51
This post makes no sense. Kerb crawling is an offence. Loitering for the purposes of is an offence, the 14 limerick men in the honey trap were not prosecuted for flower arranging.
...and that is exactly why I feel it best that matters involving legislation are actually left to the people who understand how the law really works. This sort of harmless over simplification and misunderstanding can take on epic proportions in the wrong context, and Ruhama and friends just LOVE to use this sort of thing in the wrong context.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 14:04
Did you have some kind of point in there or was it just a meaningless pile on for the feck of it? :)
(I wouldn't mind but last time we crossed swords you were blaming everything on migrant labour! :rolleyes:)
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 14:26
...and that is exactly why I feel it best that matters involving legislation are actually left to the people who understand how the law really works. This sort of harmless over simplification and misunderstanding can take on epic proportions in the wrong context, and Ruhama and friends just LOVE to use this sort of thing in the wrong context.
Unlike some people I use as few words as possible. It helps to make your point. If you need me to I can link you to every law, and absolutely bore myself and everyone else in the process.
Read Brocks post, he says it all.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 14:37
The point is that you are coming across as some type of shill of the NGO's that are making decriminalisation proposals in the disguise of added criminalisation to "private lone escort prostitution". The tactics seem to be the same, i.e. readily conflating illegal street prostitution with "private lone escort prostitution".
The more you contribute to the thread, the more its easy to develop that opinion. Whether its right or wrong is another thing though, but for sure you are following their rulebooks of conflating two seperate aspects of prostitution into the one, with the conclusion being that they are all so desperate, they need saving immediately.
By all means please continue.
Don't be so ridiculous.
I think you know as well as I do this is all about a propaganda war.
Ruhama posit the ridiculous notion that women who sell sex out of financial desperation need their incomes forcibly taken away and coercion into useless and abusive NGO programmes...
But to respond with:
"Sex workers are all independents with multiple degrees and career options who would rather fuck for a living than anything else" is to forfeit almost all, VERY hard won public sympathy and trigger older attitudes that regard sex workers as brazen hussies in need of chastisement...
...and that way, sunshine, leads to an older instinct to "PUNISH THE WHORES"...
Which is where the propaganda campaign is SO VERY clever (and cost Ruhama and TORL so much public money to devise) they set up an artificial "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" position and too many are charging into it like lemmings.
The only effective counter is to stop trying to play Ruhama's game and start forcing them to play yours by pointing out hard, indisputable, lateral, facts like:
When a person is desperate for money the most destructive thing you can do is take their livelihood away
Circumstantial coercion is a sad fact of every aspect of life that cannot be eradicated by social engineering to remove any real solutions
As long as there is no coercive third party involved any choice is voluntary, regardless of the number or quality of available options particularly when compared to imposed legislative coercion
99.9% of sex workers do not want the demand that provides their livelihood, and often that of their families, taken away
Ruhama have no real help or support to offer anyone and are a total waste of taxpayer's money
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 14:44
Unlike some people I use as few words as possible. It helps to make your point. If you need me to I can link you to every law, and absolutely bore myself and everyone else in the process.
Read Brocks post, he says it all.
Probably serve a better purpose if you sat and read those links to all those laws. :)
Curvaceous Kate
06-02-13, 14:53
What I don't understand is why the Swedish Model is so necessary now when trafficking has been in a steady decline over the last 3 years? In 2009 there were 46 cases of women trafficked in Ireland, which is estimated at 22 for 2012 and 17 children in 2009, as apposed to 7 in 2011 and predicted to be 7 again in 2012. That would suggest that there is a significant steady decline, that could be continued if they could afford to keep sufficient numbers of Garda. I'm not sure how creating more criminals for the Garda to chase and less resources is going to help? In fact is appears to be counter productive.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 14:56
Probably serve a better purpose if you sat and read those links to all those laws. :)
I did. Loitering and imoportuning are still illegal. Trying to patronise someone only works if you aren't talking nonsense.
Prostitution itself is not an offence under Irish law. However, the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993 prohibits soliciting or importuning another person in a street or public place for the purpose of prostitution (this offence applies to prostitute and client). It also prohibits loitering for the purpose of prostitution, organizing prostitution by controlling or directing the activities of a person in prostitution, coercing one to practice prostitution for gain, living on earnings of the prostitution of another person, and keeping a brothel or other premises for the purpose of prostitution. Advertising brothels and prostitution is prohibited by the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act of 1994. The minimum legal age for a prostitute in Ireland is 18 years (child prostitution legislation exists to protect persons under this age). The Criminal Law (Trafficking in Persons and Sexual Offences) Bill 2006 came into force making trafficking in persons for the purpose of their sexual exploitation a specific offence although previous legislation already covered much if this area.
I await my apology. *some* sex workers aren't in need of patronising to get your point across.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 15:09
What I don't understand is why the Swedish Model is so necessary now when trafficking has been in a steady decline over the last 3 years? In 2009 there were 46 cases of women trafficked in Ireland, which is estimated at 22 for 2012 and 17 children in 2009, as apposed to 7 in 2011 and predicted to be 7 again in 2012. That would suggest that there is a significant steady decline, that could be continued if they could afford to keep sufficient numbers of Garda. I'm not sure how creating more criminals for the Garda to chase and less resources is going to help? In fact is appears to be counter productive.
Now there is a very serious point...blows one of their main arguments right out of the water.
It could even be said that the decline demonstrates that existing trafficking legislation is working just fine. :)
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 15:11
I did. Loitering and imoportuning are still illegal. Trying to patronise someone only works if you aren't talking nonsense.
Prostitution itself is not an offence under Irish law. However, the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993 prohibits soliciting or importuning another person in a street or public place for the purpose of prostitution (this offence applies to prostitute and client). It also prohibits loitering for the purpose of prostitution, organizing prostitution by controlling or directing the activities of a person in prostitution, coercing one to practice prostitution for gain, living on earnings of the prostitution of another person, and keeping a brothel or other premises for the purpose of prostitution. Advertising brothels and prostitution is prohibited by the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act of 1994. The minimum legal age for a prostitute in Ireland is 18 years (child prostitution legislation exists to protect persons under this age). The Criminal Law (Trafficking in Persons and Sexual Offences) Bill 2006 came into force making trafficking in persons for the purpose of their sexual exploitation a specific offence although previous legislation already covered much if this area.
I await my apology. *some* sex workers aren't in need of patronising to get your point across.
Well you are not getting one because you just proved that I was absolutely right when I said buying sex from a streetworker is not (as you claimed) in itself illegal, just the things required to advertise for it. :p
(Are you feeling all right?)
Ebony Amber
06-02-13, 15:19
Well you are not getting one because you just proved that I was absolutely right when I said buying sex from a streetworker is not (as you claimed) in itself illegal, just the things required to advertise for it. :p
(Are you feeling all right?)
I'm quite au fait with the laws LBT, I spent years learning and researching them. So your attitude of only certain people should habe involvment in legislations is a joke. But for simplicity sake I choose to term it simply. The selling isn't illegal its everything around it. Asan indoor worker ypu can get around the solociting law however when you sollicit in the street in public it is illegal. Thus any client who attempts to engage the services of an out door worker breaks the law to do so.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 15:27
I'm quite au fait with the laws LBT, I spent years learning and researching them. So your attitude of only certain people should habe involvment in legislations is a joke. But for simplicity sake I choose to term it simply. The selling isn't illegal its everything around it. Asan indoor worker ypu can get around the solociting law however when you sollicit in the street in public it is illegal. Thus any client who attempts to engage the services of an out door worker breaks the law to do so.
But you concede it is not unlawful to buy sex from a sex worker?
Anyway, ENOUGH for now....because Uncle Paul Maguire is getting ready to tell us all a NICE fairy story...
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/live-flashplayer/committeeroom2/
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 15:39
Well you are not getting one because you just proved that I was absolutely right when I said buying sex from a streetworker is not (as you claimed) in itself illegal, just the things required to advertise for it. :p
(Are you feeling all right?)
How would you buy that sex? By telepathy? Importuning. Which I assume, well know actually, would cover any of the conversation you would need to have with the person loitering for the purposes of. Again, what do you think those arrested in Limerick did? Ask for directions?
Head desk. Head desk.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 15:47
How would you buy that sex? By telepathy? Importuning. Which I assume, well know actually, would cover any of the conversation you would need to have with the person loitering for the purposes of. Again, what do you think those arrested in Limerick did? Ask for directions?
Head desk. Head desk.
You are missing the difference, the act of sex, and the act of paying for it, are not illegal, so that arrests can only be made at the point of solicitation or loitering, they cannot be made during or due to, the act of sex or payment. That significantly reduces the risk of arrest.
Now, you've had your pile on for today...and I would like to follow the real hearings and the real issues instead.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 15:50
You are missing the difference, the act of sex, and the act of paying for it, are not illegal, so that arrests can only be made at the point of solicitation or loitering, they cannot be made during or due to, the act of sex or payment. That significantly reduces the risk of arrest.
Now, you've had your pile on for today...and I would like to follow the real hearings and the real issues instead.
The act of sex?! And paying for sex is legal, the act of loitering on the street and importuning is not legal. Therefore STREETWORK has been illegal since 1993, as has picking up (importuning for the senile) a street walker has been an offence for two decades. Read my posts, you are again making no sense. I wonder if you actually read your own.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 15:53
The act of sex?! And paying for sex is legal, the act of loitering on the street and importuning is not legal. Therefore STREETWORK has been illegal since 1993, as has picking up (importuning for the senile) a street walker has been an offence for two decades. Read my posts, you are again making no sense. I wonder if you actually read your own.
...and the reason why you do not see any need to decriminalise this, so that street workers may have the same rights you want for yourself, is?
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 15:54
...and the reason why you do not see any need to decriminalise this, so that street workers may have the same rights you want for yourself, is?
What? Ok, now you are in the realms of insanity. I'm out. EI possibly need to take a close look at your posts.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 16:01
What? Ok, now you are in the realms of insanity. I'm out. EI possibly need to take a close look at your posts.
So you do not want street workers to have the same rights as you want for yourself? In fact, one could say that you are willing to throw them to the wolves?
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 16:04
So you do not want street workers to have the same rights as you want for yourself? In fact, one could say that you are willing to throw them to the wolves?
Street workers and decriminalisation and the criminalisation of the purchase of sex bill are two entirely different issues, and to try and tie them together does us a disservice.
Instead of trying to drag people into pointless wordy arguments get your facts straight and your campaign on the right page and then we will discuss my view on street work. I do not think you have a clue what it means to be a sex worker in Ireland today, frankly. I think perhaps you would like things to be as you paint them but unfortunately that won't work.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 16:07
Street workers and decriminalisation and the criminalisation of the purchase of sex bill are two entirely different issues, and to try and tie them together does us a disservice.
Instead of trying to drag people into pointless wordy arguments get your facts straight and your campaign on the right page and then we will discuss my view on street work. I do not think you have a clue what it means to be a sex worker in Ireland today.
I do not think you care what it means to be a sex worker in Ireland today, and you really haven't got the first clue how politics works, and it shows...vividly.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 16:09
I do not think you care what it means to be a sex worker in Ireland today, and you really haven't got the first clue how politics works, and it shows...vividly.
??
I think you are making no sense and resorting to petty insult as you know you have made a fool of yourself yet again :) but for the record, I'm not a Politician. I'm an escort. A bloody good one. So sorry you don't like my opinion, shall I get back in that box?
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 16:12
??
I think you are making no sense and resorting to petty insult as you know you have made a fool of yourself yet again :) but for the record, I'm not a Politician. I'm an escort. A bloody good one. So sorry you don't like my opinion, shall I get back in that box?
Whatever...
So far only one street worker has responded to the questionnaire. Street workers can be quite hard to reach but they haven't been omitted or forgotten about. Do you fancy taking some questionnaires to the clinics and the streets LBT? We are struggling to find enough volunteers.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 16:27
Whatever...
Now that's a intelligent response. Well thought out and researched.
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 16:39
So far only one street worker has responded to the questionnaire. Street workers can be quite hard to reach but they haven't been omitted or forgotten about. Do you fancy taking some questionnaires to the clinics and the streets LBT? We are struggling to find enough volunteers.
I don't think it would be feasible, let alone comfortable, for me to work with people who knife me in the back on a regular basis...but nice play, seriously :)
(Well I can't be bothered playing silly games like this.)
Particularly the idea of sending me into the WHS...so they could gun me down for you. :firing: :lmao:
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 16:40
Now that's a intelligent response. Well thought out and researched.
Whatever...
I don't think it would be feasible, let alone comfortable, for me to work with people who knife me in the back on a regular basis...but nice play, seriously :)
(Well I can't be bothered playing silly games like this.)
Particularly the idea of sending me into the WHS...so they could gun me down for you. :firing: :lmao:
Hmmm nothing has gone wrong. We need to reach as many street workers as possible in a short space of time.
You don't want to help. That's fine. No need for dramatics.
saoirsemac
06-02-13, 16:50
[QUOTE=LaBelleThatcher;1022556]I do not think you care what it means to be a sex worker in Ireland today, and you really haven't got the first clue how politics works, and it shows...vividly.[QUOTE]
U mean made up facts and wild out dated assumptions?
and play the victim card, im sick of u painting sex workers as sex hating desperate women, we want our voice heard too
may i ask you something, you respect rachel greatly, do you believe she hates sex and is doing this as she no other option?
saoirsemac
06-02-13, 16:52
So far only one street worker has responded to the questionnaire. Street workers can be quite hard to reach but they haven't been omitted or forgotten about. Do you fancy taking some questionnaires to the clinics and the streets LBT? We are struggling to find enough volunteers.
sure there over a thousand shud be easy to find
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 16:52
Hmmm nothing has gone wrong. We need to reach as many street workers as possible in a short space of time.
You don't want to help. That's fine. No need for dramatics.
Not dramatics, just fact...everybody reading this (even the TORLeks and Ruhamites I'd say) knows that you and I have serious irresolvable issues so why would you even ask?
:lmao:
saoirsemac
06-02-13, 16:55
I don't think it would be feasible, let alone comfortable, for me to work with people who knife me in the back on a regular basis...but nice play, seriously :)
(Well I can't be bothered playing silly games like this.)
Particularly the idea of sending me into the WHS...so they could gun me down for you. :firing: :lmao:
stab u in the back, coz we current sex workers disagree with some of your arguements and dont wish to be painted as desprete with no choice? honestly if your the result of sex work outdoors, we need to sort it out,
coz lady u are mental, shall we expect another woe is me im leaving thread now?
people disagree and u even said u dont care about current sex work, i think the debate needs to show sex work moved on
and the women in it making choices as a business not despression for a fix feed family etc
\nd heather asked as u have the outdoor experience we dnt, i dnt even know where 1000 workers are, why are so againist working together for a greater good,
like maybe tell us where are the red light areas moved too? where can we reach them, we know about indoor
but u are invaluable as regards outdoor
LaBelleThatcher
06-02-13, 16:55
U mean made up facts and wild out dated assumptions?
and play the victim card, im sick of u painting sex workers as sex hating desperate women, we want our voice heard too
may i ask you something, you respect rachel greatly, do you believe she hates sex and is doing this as she no other option?
I believe you should ask Rachel that, not me.
Lucy Chambers
06-02-13, 16:57
I believe you should ask Rachel that, not me.
Did you ask all of the other sex workers if they were desperate? You see, you do an awful lot of speaking for us and not a lot of listening to us, other than to disaprage us if you don't find our opinions valid.
I know another organisation that does that, Ruhama. It's a small degree of separation.
saoirsemac
06-02-13, 16:59
I believe you should ask Rachel that, not me.
no im asking u
you make assumptions do they include rachel
personal i think i know rachel answer, but why u willin to tar us all and not answer this
do u maybe accept rachel is different for outdoor sex workers? showing sex work and who it attracts has changed
since u last worked the streets
I again edited out stuff that shouldn't be here.
This debate is pointless now.
Closing this