View Full Version : decriminalisation
it's not so apparent to me why the Swedish model seeks to decriminalise the sex workers?
it's not so apparent to me why the Swedish model seeks to decriminalise the sex workers?
It's a slight of hand gesture, why would you punish the victims of violence, as the theory is that if you are paying someone for sex you are inflicting violence on them.
it's not so apparent to me why the Swedish model seeks to decriminalise the sex workers?
That's simply because it is a big lie! :mad: It doesn't decriminalize escorts but further criminalizes them indirectly.
While it may be the client that bears the brunt of the legal system (under the Swedish model), the escort will be almost certainly be evicted from her apartment and things made very difficult for her to continue working.
By crimnalizing one partner in a business interaction - you effectively criminalize the act in itself, thereby affecting both parties.
At present street prostitution is illegal for both punter and escort. You can be damn sure if the Swedish model is implemented in Ireland street work will still be illegal for escorts.
The proponents of the Swedish model know exactly what they are doing. They hate sex work and don't have time for for any sex workers who don't fit into their vicitm model. Obviously they hate punters even more.
But don't listen to me, listen to Pye Jacobsson - a former Swedish sex worker - pointing out how the Swedish model further marginalizes escorts. (Have posted this clip before but never get tired of it).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D7nOh57-I8
Half Man and Half Dildo
30-12-12, 16:33
Selling sex is not a criminal act in Ireland therefore "decriminalisation" is largely nothing more than a red-herring used by TORL and their supporters as a means to garner sympathy and support for their agenda.
Look up prostitution in Sweden in Wikipedia, gives a good summary of the Swedish law and the mentality of its proponents
the traveller
30-12-12, 17:19
Could also be seen as an act in a class war. Well healed, privileged middle class women from inside the pale telling what lesser privileged women can and can't do. Very hard for a person from a working class background to attend third level education and attain the same salary that these CEO's and lawyers are able to. But that's just what they want. Their way or the highway.
The Equalizer
30-12-12, 18:50
That's simply because it is a big lie! :mad: It doesn't decriminalize escorts but further criminalizes them indirectly.
While it may be the client that bears the brunt of the legal system (under the Swedish model), the escort will be almost certainly be evicted from her apartment and things made very difficult for her to continue working.
By crimnalizing one partner in a business interaction - you effectively criminalize the act in itself, thereby affecting both parties.
At present street prostitution is illegal for both punter and escort. You can be damn sure if the Swedish model is implemented in Ireland street work will still be illegal for escorts.
The proponents of the Swedish model know exactly what they are doing. They hate sex work and don't have time for for any sex workers who don't fit into their vicitm model. Obviously they hate punters even more.
But don't listen to me, listen to Pye Jacobsson - a former Swedish sex worker - pointing out how the Swedish model further marginalizes escorts. (Have posted this clip before but never get tired of it).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D7nOh57-I8
Very valid points Morpheus.
While it may be the client that bears the brunt of the legal system (under the Swedish model), the escort will be almost certainly be evicted from her apartment and things made very difficult for her to continue working.
The obvious flaws in Swedish-style Legislation (pushing the Sex Industry into the hands of pimps and human traffickers) are well documented. Further research into the flaws within Swedish-style Legislation has also revealed that landlords/managers etc of properties which sex workers in Sweden work from has revealed that said landlords/managers charge sex-workers (upon learning that a tenant/property user is a sex worker) extortionate rents, or else said landlord will "alert the Police" as to the activities of said sex worker, thus crippling how the sex worker can conduct their business.
In addition to forcing sex workers into the hands of lowlife such as pimps and human traffickers, Swedish-style Legislation exposes sex workers to numerous forms of harassment and marginalization (as seen above). The above example is just one example of such harassment and marginalization.
Half Man and Half Dildo
30-12-12, 19:18
The best thing for sex workers across Europe to do is take a case to the European Court Of Human Rights.
Oooh, I actually get to quote MYSELF for once:
One issue that I would also like to use today to bring attention to is the issue of decriminalisation of sex workers and how this is not likely to be achieved under the model being endorsed by many non-governmental organisations.
When is "decriminalisation" actually decriminalisation?
The decriminalisation they envisage is only partial, and will not protect sex workers from legal persecution beyond amending the soliciting/importuning provision of the 1993 Act (sections 6-8). Street sex workers will still be potential victims of legal persecution through the existing provisions of the Public Order Act 1994 (sections 5 and 8 mainly) which provides individual gardaí arbitrary powers and creates similar general offences of loitering (and being asked to move and a power of arrest where they are not satisfied the direction is complied with leading to a separate offence of failing to comply with a direction).
Another troubling aspect is the potential for sex workers and their clients to be charged either with offensive conduct in a public place under the 1994 Act, or the more serious offence of indecent exposure under the section 18 of Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1990 which provides that "any person who commits, in public, any act in such a way as to offend modesty or cause scandal or injure the morals of the community shall be guilty of an offence...the person may receive a fine of up to €634.87 or, if the court decides, they may be sent to prison for up to six months".
The net effect? A potential criminal record for an offence that could range from being in the same scale as a mix of cases the legislation has been used in which range from drunk and disorderly individuals, to displaying a poster of an aborted foetus, to being on par with a male or female who has exposed himself in public, rather than simply one for soliciting/importuning for the purposes of prostitution. I wonder which an employer might find worse?
Advertising
Indoor sex workers are under specific threat from Ruhama’s submission for amendment of the current advertising restriction under section 23 of the 1994 Act which would make the owning of an domain name for the purposes of advertising what is or could be “reasonably inferred” to be the services of a sex worker an indictable offence (meaning if known or suspected to owning or operating a website and in Ireland at any time, you can be arrested and charged with an offence).
This could potentially include independent escorts own personal advertising websites if the scope of this amendment is not properly thought out. The offence would carry up to ten years imprisonment and/or a significant fine.
Additionally, they have no plans to amend the section 10 of the 1993 Act (brothel keeping) which would allow escorts work in safety. The murdered escort Belinda Periera was murdered in a two bedroom apartment in Dublin, would she have been murdered if there was another escort there? That is the potential choice which some sex workers may have to confront daily...do they risk getting abused, even murdered, or do they risk a criminal conviction?
LaBelleThatcher
30-12-12, 19:57
The "Swedish Model" decriminalises sex work, then strives to criminalise everything that makes it possible for them to make a living...which...HELL-O-O is what it is really all about.
Ruhama want to take it much further http://sexwork.ie/2012/09/10/ruhama-submission-leaked/ and criminalise everything that makes them safe (NB ANY situation that involves one person regularly alone with significant amounts of cash is inherently dangerous at times), and makes indoor sex work possible, like mobile phones and advertising, or even personal web sites.
They also want to make it a very serious crime (involving hard time) to rent premises to a sex *WHETHER IT CAN BE PROVED THAT YOU WERE AWARE OR NOT* which, in practice will make landlords too afraid to rent a home to anyone they suspect *MAY* be a sex worker (including but not limited to de facto sex workers and attractive young women with bouyant social lives).
They want to make sex workers decriminalised, desperate and absolutely helpless so they can force their unwanted attentions and insane ideology upon them.
It is disgusting.
The Equalizer
30-12-12, 21:29
Not only does Swedish-style Legislation push the Sex Industry into the hands of scum such as human traffickers, it also promotes a sense of discrimination against Sex Workers and makes Sex Workers vulnerable to exploitation/harassment in general (see my above post for just one such example).
Additional points to note regarding Swedish-style Legislation
Evidence of discrimination (including racial/ethnic discrimination) against Sex Workers is evident in Sweden in relation to Sweden's enforcement of Legislation relating to the Sex Industry. Sweden requires all sex workers to pay taxes, yet the appropriate Government department refuse to accept "Sex Worker" as an occupation/business activity. The Swedish Government also acknowledges that a significant number of street Sex Workers are immigrants, and are living/working in Sweden without work visas and other appropriate documentation.
Police harassment of Sex Workers has increased.In particular, Swedish Police have been known to force repercussions upon Sex Workers who refuse to testify against their clients
(Links: http://rightswork.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Issue-Paper-4.pdf, http://www.globalrights.org/site/DocServer/Don_Kulick_on_the_Swedish_Model.pdf)
The Equalizer
30-12-12, 22:00
And even more points in relation to Swedish-style Legislation.
Clients of Sex Workers are less willing to testify in cases of abuse of Sex Workers/coercion into Sex Work/human trafficking. If according to the Law, clients of Sex Workers are liable for prosecution due to "involvement" with Sex Workers, they cannot openly (for obvious reasons) report any concerns they may have to the Police. Pimps and human traffickers are well aware of this, and will use this to their advantage.
A significant number of Sex Workers in Sweden are very disappointed with the quality of social supports available to Sex Workers in Sweden. Sex Workers in Ireland (current and former) have had their world turned upside-down (and not in a good way) by the social supports (namely Ruhama and TORL) available to them in Ireland, and this has been confirmed by current and former Sex Workers in Ireland. If Swedish-style Legislation were to be introduced in Ireland, the situation would become alot worse for Sex Workers.
The above problems (in both my posts) are not only prevalent in Sweden itself, but also in other States in which Swedish-style Legislation is implemented and enacted.
(Links: http://www.globalrights.org/site/DocServer/Don_Kulick_on_the_Swedish_Model.pdf, http://www.globalrights.org/site/DocServer/Don_Kulick_on_the_Swedish_Model.pdf,)
the traveller
30-12-12, 22:26
The best thing for sex workers across Europe to do is take a case to the European Court Of Human Rights.
Question for the legal eagle. I presume Irish law and Canadian law are based on British law. So how did the Canadian sex workers challenge the anti sex work laws there and would a challenge here based on the same principals succeed?
Question for the legal eagle. I presume Irish law and Canadian law are based on British law. So how did the Canadian sex workers challenge the anti sex work laws there and would a challenge here based on the same principals succeed?
Different Constitution, the Canadian's have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, also perhaps a less conservative legal mindset than UK and Irish common law courts leading to a more liberal interpretation of the scope of particular rights (such as to earn a livelihood, etc.)
I believe the ECHR only hears cases that have exhausted all the options in the domestic court system also, or where there is no real mechanism to challenge the issue. So again, it's likely to be a high cost and none of it's rulings are binding on Ireland, they are merely "best practice" and can only issue a "declaration of incompatibility" of an Irish law with the European Convention on Human Rights, to internationally shame the Oireachtas into making changes (see the abortion debate, and the failure to implement the X case 20 years later)
saoirsemac
31-12-12, 03:07
Could also be seen as an act in a class war. Well healed, privileged middle class women from inside the pale telling what lesser privileged women can and can't do. Very hard for a person from a working class background to attend third level education and attain the same salary that these CEO's and lawyers are able to. But that's just what they want. Their way or the highway.
why assume u cant be form a decent background and do this, why feed this notion, i know girls form very wealthy faimilies who did this
why assume u cant be form a decent background and do this, why feed this notion, i know girls form very wealthy faimilies who did this
Thought that myself when I read that post, too many assumptions being made with no evidence. A bit like the whole torl operation
Curvaceous Kate
31-12-12, 09:04
Could also be seen as an act in a class war. Well healed, privileged middle class women from inside the pale telling what lesser privileged women can and can't do. Very hard for a person from a working class background to attend third level education and attain the same salary that these CEO's and lawyers are able to. But that's just what they want. Their way or the highway.
I think that it's is bigger than that. In times of recession a whole new level of woman is taking to the occupation. You now do have lawyers, Teachers etc who are taking to prostitution to bridge the gap or see them through education, as the fees are so high. It is no longer contained to the lower classes (as they were). No class distinction means they are losing a grip on disdain and have to act fast to keep it in it's place. After all a woman with choices can not choose to be a victim... can they?
LaBelleThatcher
31-12-12, 12:09
I think that it's is bigger than that. In times of recession a whole new level of woman is taking to the occupation. You now do have lawyers, Teachers etc who are taking to prostitution to bridge the gap or see them through education, as the fees are so high. It is no longer contained to the lower classes (as they were). No class distinction means they are losing a grip on disdain and have to act fast to keep it in it's place. After all a woman with choices can not choose to be a victim... can they?
There is another hard and brutal fact. Helpless, dependent people are worth a small fortune to the voluntary and community sector...autonomous, independent people are not worth diddley squat...
The very first thing I noticed about Ruhama, in the very beginning, in 1989, was that they cold bloodedly worked away at psychologically and emotionally undermining and disempowering the women. At the time I found that shocking, without even realising the wider implications.
The Equalizer
31-12-12, 12:37
There is another hard and brutal fact. Helpless, dependent people are worth a small fortune to the voluntary and community sector...autonomous, independent people are not worth diddley squat...
The very first thing I noticed about Ruhama, in the very beginning, in 1989, was that they cold bloodedly worked away at psychologically and emotionally undermining and disempowering the women. At the time I found that shocking, without even realising the wider implications.
Helpless, dependent people are worth a small fortune to the voluntary and community sector...autonomous, independent people are not worth diddley squat...
The former is what organisations such as Ruhama and TORL depend on. And they also just love people who won't "speak the truth against them". This is the same practice followed by pimps and human traffickers (whom Ruhama and TORL supposedly detest) whilst recruiting "appropriate" persons to serve their purpose (in the case of Ruhama and TORL, they are using "helpless dependent people" as leverage to secure extra funding).
The very first thing I noticed about Ruhama, in the very beginning, in 1989, was that they cold bloodedly worked away at psychologically and emotionally undermining and disempowering the women. At the time I found that shocking, without even realising the wider implications.
Again, the same practice used by pimps and human traffickers to "gain compliance" over those "within their control". And, as said earlier, they (Ruhama and TORL) just love to brainwash "poor exploited people" into a state of dependence upon them, almost to the point that the people whom they are "helping" are afraid to speak out against them.
(The above practice is known as Stockholm Syndrome)
saoirsemac
31-12-12, 15:31
Thought that myself when I read that post, too many assumptions being made with no evidence. A bit like the whole torl operation
even the wealthy work to avoid proverty, i was in a good well paying job when i started this part time, i enjoyed it i enjoyed the lifestyle and most of all the money, i set a plan which ive stuck too, i made a business decision to enter this for x amount of time, achievcing goals along the way, which im up to date on,
i choose the sex industry, as it provided a quick way to my goals, doing a job i enjoy for the most part, i hateeeeeee my phone
cud i be working still in well paying job in a sectior i have a degree for, yes i cud, but i like making tripple that salary while enjoying time off, im in my 20s i dnt wat to spend my time in an office i want to get out enjoy it,
the sex industry allows this
LaBelleThatcher
31-12-12, 17:03
Helpless, dependent people are worth a small fortune to the voluntary and community sector...autonomous, independent people are not worth diddley squat...
The former is what organisations such as Ruhama and TORL depend on. And they also just love people who won't "speak the truth against them". This is the same practice followed by pimps and human traffickers (whom Ruhama and TORL supposedly detest) whilst recruiting "appropriate" persons to serve their purpose (in the case of Ruhama and TORL, they are using "helpless dependent people" as leverage to secure extra funding).
The very first thing I noticed about Ruhama, in the very beginning, in 1989, was that they cold bloodedly worked away at psychologically and emotionally undermining and disempowering the women. At the time I found that shocking, without even realising the wider implications.
Again, the same practice used by pimps and human traffickers to "gain compliance" over those "within their control". And, as said earlier, they (Ruhama and TORL) just love to brainwash "poor exploited people" into a state of dependence upon them, almost to the point that the people whom they are "helping" are afraid to speak out against them.
(The above practice is known as Stockholm Syndrome)
Actually you are not quite right, as they still rely on volunteer subjects at this point. The Stockholm Syndrome is what bthey look forward to capitalizing on AFTER the Swedish model when they have made, at least some people, so utterly desperate that they have no choices left.
I am painfully aware of the extent to which they project their own abuses and dysfunction onto the sex industry, not least their ongoing fear of being eradicated by the ever present threat of "ending the demand" for their questionable services.
Prove there is no demand = No more Government money = An NGO that is history. They dread that.
LaBelleThatcher
31-12-12, 17:12
even the wealthy work to avoid proverty
I think that is a very important truth in life, and never more so than in recession (the first high profile suicide of the recession was the super rich guy who owned Rocca Tiles). NOBODY (no exceptions) can afford to lose their job right now. VERY few will find adequate alternative work in time to avoid severe hardship.
Also, "no options" can take many forms. I was talking to a lady I have known for years in your part of the world who has (and is practically married to) a small, bijoux hotel. What I did not know, until recently, is how she paid for it. She worked the streets in Cork for a few years...
The only thing she ever wanted to do with her life was own her own hotel, she would never have been able to get it any other way, not by going to Uni, CERTAINLY not by working in Dunnes. That is another kind of "no option" that is not about whether you survive, but rather about whether you get the chance to be really alive.
I think that is supposed to be important too?
BlondeRaquel
14-01-13, 11:28
Because Sweden is very strict with escort job....i guess
Rachel Divine
14-01-13, 13:35
The demand will always be there.
No country, no law stopped prostitution, even human trafficking, brothels and agencies running.
Half Man and Half Dildo
14-01-13, 22:00
The demand will always be there.
No country, no law stopped prostitution, even human trafficking, brothels and agencies running.
And likewise any attempt to stop the advertising of sex for money is doomed to failure, especially in this the digital age. Escorts could even write their phone numbers on €10, €20, €50 notes as they were spending them and there wouldn't be a Goddamned thing TORL could do about that.