Dublin Conference Report from Sweden [Archive]

LaBelleThatcher

06-11-12, 23:33

Morpheus

07-11-12, 00:15

http://www.ihra.net/contents/1275

Thanks Labelle. Before I read the article, I feared it was going to be another diatribe from a pro- Swedish model Swede, saying how they had shown the Irish the light!!

Great to see another Swede standing up for sex workers rights and actually bothering to come to Ireland to question the information being presented.

Here's the crux of where the TORL have gone wrong;

"Prostitution stirs up emotions and much heated debates and discussions, moral judgments all too often take the upper hand. That makes it even more important for policy makers to sort out the known from the unknown. No matter of how we feel and what moral values we harbor, the real and difficult question is how to formulate a policy that makes sense and doesn’t harm sex workers. If the idea is to help and protect, listening to what sex workers have to say and taking that fully into account must be central. This is exactly where Sweden went wrong from start.

Sweden is stuck (for now) with a law that is harmful to those it was said to protect, and disempowerment instead of empowerment. Sweden’s policy makers display ignorance and indifference to sex workers. I hope Ireland’s policy makers are wiser, and that is the impression I got after attending the conference in Dublin. I hope I am right."

They have disguised their high ground moral position as empathy and a desire to help victims (ie. all escorts!!!). All they really want is to rid Ireland of prostitution!! The genuine vistims are just a means to their end.

As mentioned I am delighted with Louise Persson's account above. Unfortunately I would be less optimistic about our law makers, as she hopes.

The key I think , is that escorts voices need to continue to be heard. So well done Rachel, Amber, Labelle, and all the other ladies who've spoke out or written in to the relevant authorities. Lets hope your voices are heard.

Morpheus

07-11-12, 00:22

I have the feeling many escorts do want the Swedish model in Ireland. "Im popular, I have regulars, I will fine, maybe even better " and thinking about clients they will not visit new escorts , or without reviews, or not popular etc .. it is something some say.

Of course , agencies , escorts who charge low fee ,are bad, in general foreign escorts are trafficked , it is a good propaganda to scare the customer and direct them towards others..

A very short sighted viewpoint, I'm sure you'll agree, Rachel.

If the Swedish model does come in (which I certainly hope it won't), some escorts may actually do better out of it. A minority. However, in the long run all escorts and clients will lose out.

If such a model does comes in, it will change the way the average person views prostitution. Clients will be eventually perceived as similar to rapists and child molesters. And all escorts will be perceived as victims. Of course those escorts that do well out of it, will eventually be viewed as warped, or evil themselves. And some fine reporter like Paul Connolly will be out there to take pics and do another expose.

Anyway, we should all aim to fight any further criminalization of the escorting industry regardless of our personal differences.

LaBelleThatcher

07-11-12, 00:38

Thanks Labelle. Before I read the article, I feared it was going to be another diatribe from a pro- Swedish model Swede, saying how they had shown the Irish the light!!

I wouldn't do that to you. :)

They have disguised their high ground moral position as empathy and a desire to help victims (ie. all escorts!!!). All they really want is to rid Ireland of prostitution!! The genuine victims are just a means to their end.

I honestly do not think it is even that idealistic...it's just about hanging on to funding and a sense of their own importance through making sex workers as desperate and dependent on them as possible.

...and, in most cases, that is probably only because all the other more lucrative disabilities and disadvantages were already taken...they neither know nor care anything about sex and sex workers (nor even trafficking) because they never had any intention of doing anything but making it all up as they went along to suit themselves.

Some days I look at the rubbish they put out and I honestly find it hard to believe that people could be so ruthless and remorseless with other people's lives.

Sex workers are not "things" they are people, but you wouldn't know it listening to them. The great secret thay are hiding is that real sex workers have never wanted anything to do with them, just for a handful of people who live by "playing the system".

If they get what they want, sex workers will not just loose their incomes (which will be the end of the line for some) they will constantly be at greater risk of attack, or REAL (not imaginary) absorption into REAL (not fictional) organised crime.

Sooner or later a few will be seriously hurt, and even killed...

Not because they are making a political point but because they still have to pay bills and meet obligations and THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES.

TORL know this as well as I do.but as long as they get what they want they couldn't care less.

Rachel Divine

07-11-12, 01:45

A very short sighted viewpoint, I'm sure you'll agree, Rachel.

If the Swedish model does come in (which I certainly hope it won't), some escorts may actually do better out of it. A minority. However, in the long run all escorts and clients will lose out.

If such a model does comes in, it will change the way the average person views prostitution. Clients will be eventually perceived as similar to rapists and child molesters. And all escorts will be perceived as victims. Of course those escorts that do well out of it, will eventually be viewed as warped, or evil themselves. And some fine reporter like Paul Connolly will be out there to take pics and do another expose.

Anyway, we should all aim to fight any further criminalization of the escorting industry regardless of our personal differences.
I can say that I think established escorts might have work/more work than new girls, yes.
With over 70 reviews, with regular customers where I go and so on, I would still have work , I am not "afraid" of not having..

The issue with this model is, I want my privacy , I want my client to come to visit me without fear , I am not a victim/evil and I do not consider customers as rapists nor should be viewed as such.

As good this law can sound to some escorts , clients do not agree with it..

Ebony Amber

07-11-12, 11:46

I have the feeling many escorts do want the Swedish model in Ireland. "Im popular, I have regulars, I will fine, maybe even better " and thinking about clients they will not visit new escorts , or without reviews, or not popular etc .. it is something some say.

Of course , agencies , escorts who charge low fee ,are bad, in general foreign escorts are trafficked , it is a good propaganda to scare the customer and direct them towards others..

Of all the comments by escorts on this site about the proposed new laws I have only seen 1 person who believed the Swedish model would be a good thing.

To say that many escorts want the Swedish model in Ireland in my opinion would be untrue and unfair.

I do believe that a lot of escorts are not stressing themselves over it taking the consensus that what is going to happen is going to happen and they will just adjust accordingly. However there are a lot of escorts and former escorts who dispise the idea of these new laws and they would imo be in the majority.

As good this law can sound to some escorts , clients do not agree with it..

I do not believe the majority of sex workers agree with it either Rachel. People just want to be able to work in peace. Maybe a well reviewed "popular" (as you put it) escort may still be able to work and perhaps the competition would be less but who wants to have to vigorously screen their clients and have all the drama that will come with it. My feelings are very few.

Half Man and Half Dildo

07-11-12, 20:00

If escorts didn't publicly advertise their phone numbers and only accepted bookings via PM's from verified clients it would cut down on the ability of time wasters, journalists, and moralistic crusaders to cause them disruption.

Recently I was thinking (with the BIG head :D ) if a paywall system was implemented in some manner and a fee was required for access to each escort's contact details, on an individual basis, that it would seriously, seriously hamper the ability of anyone to harvest numbers enmasse for reporting to the phone companies. Say a fee of €10 per escort\number and this valid for say a month or so and if a number had to be changed because it had been blocked it would cost another €10 for Ruhama or whoever to find out the new number.

LaBelleThatcher

07-11-12, 20:51

I do believe that a lot of escorts are not stressing themselves over it taking the consensus that what is going to happen is going to happen and they will just adjust accordingly. However there are a lot of escorts and former escorts who dispise the idea of these new laws and they would imo be in the majority.

I do not believe the majority of sex workers agree with it either Rachel. People just want to be able to work in peace. Maybe a well reviewed "popular" (as you put it) escort may still be able to work and perhaps the competition would be less but who wants to have to vigorously screen their clients and have all the drama that will come with it. My feelings are very few.

Something occurred to me today. A lot of ordinary people get drawn into "Turn Off the Red Light" and other crazy agenda (even "relocating" Jews in Nazi Germany) because they have a deep faith that some ephemeral "they" couldn't possibly intend to do any REAL harm so it must be ok...

...and at the end of the day sex workers are ordinary people too and susceptible to the same complacent thinking.

I bet many sex workers genuinely can't believe that Ruhama REALLY want laws that will harm them. (See what Brock says above, the laws Ruhama propose would make it almost impossible for a sex worker to rent a home to live in, among other things.)

Ebony Amber

07-11-12, 20:54

Something occurred to me today. A lot of ordinary people get drawn into "Turn Off the Red Light" and other crazy agenda (even "relocating" Jews in Nazi Germany) because they have a deep faith that some ephemeral "they" couldn't possibly intend to do any REAL harm so it must be ok...

...and at the end of the day sex workers are ordinary people too and susceptible to the same complacent thinking.

I bet many sex workers genuinely can't believe that Ruhama REALLY want laws that will harm them. (See what Brock says above, the laws Ruhama propose would make it almost impossible for a sex worker to rent a home to live in, among other things.)

When I spoke to the Ruhama lady at the conference she kept repeating to me that all she wanted to do was "help sex workers". So I kept repeating that she was going about it the wrong way.

Half Man and Half Dildo

07-11-12, 21:10

LaBelleThatcher

07-11-12, 21:40

When I spoke to the Ruhama lady at the conference she kept repeating to me that all she wanted to do was "help sex workers". So I kept repeating that she was going about it the wrong way.

Some people are just slower learners than others Ebony...

They are ridiculous...when you really want to help someone, surely the very first thing you do is ask them what they most need?

Morpheus

07-11-12, 22:34

It is a

Ruhama of course would have awareness raising campaigns and advertisements highlighting that, by saying don't support prostitution, don't let criminals use apartments and hotels for selling sex, Ruhama would enjoy playing on the illegality of it.

That was a major reason why a lot of women were forced onto the streets. Also, internet escorts from Sweden, a lot of them only do outcalls. Touring sex workers don't see the full affect of the law in Sweden.

Ruhama cares about safety of escorts, HAHA, they do in their hole! they want to make it an offense to lease property to sex workers or for hotels to have them.

That's exactly where Ruhama, The immigrant council and the TORL want escorts.....out on the streets! So that escorts will be more vulnerable than ever with even less choices, and being forced into Ruhama's open arms!:angryfire:

Ruhama cares as much about about sex workers as a cat does a mouse.

Of course they do Brock! They make money out of escorts......just under 700,000 euro/annum! And all Ruhama really cares about is the welfare of escorts???????:banghead:

Rachel Divine

08-11-12, 00:01

When I spoke to the Ruhama lady at the conference she kept repeating to me that all she wanted to do was "help sex workers". So I kept repeating that she was going about it the wrong way.

Ebony, a more appropriate response would have been to call her a liar.

Ruhama is not lying. The way they see "help sex workers " is to stop them working.

LaBelleThatcher

08-11-12, 07:29

Ruhama is not lying. The way they see "help sex workers " is to stop them working.

The horrible, chilling truth is that they *are* lying about that. Their own research shows women driven by horrific finanancial imperatives. If they wanted to "help" then the LAST thing they would do is try to take their income away or make it harder. They would be campaigning for resources to be available to those women so they can choose, not laws to finish them, and their families, off entirely.

Ruhama are not stupid people, they know exactly what they are doing and exactly how much harm they will bring...and because it is about their big salaries and their sense of their own importance they just do not care how much harm they do.

They do not even think of us as people, much less their equals, which is abundantly clear from the tone of their website, where they talk over us, and talk of us, but never deign to talk *to* us.

SexyHotTv

09-11-12, 01:59

The swedish model is working for many years in Norway and Sweden and any escort who have toured Oslo or Stockholm would know that the business there is very good and lots of money over there, lots of clients and the average prices start at 200 euros minimum for 30 minutes or 300 an hour, not that many timewasters as in ireland and not thiefs or vandalists.

I think the swedish model may get many men scared of visiting an escort, but by own experience this happens now too, for some men is fine and other men they are scared just like a chicken! so i dont think it would change a lot on this way!

Right now if an escort get a asshole (timewasters,thiefs....) may be afraid of calling the garda, with the swedish model this would be totally different............

Personally I think the swedish model isnt right cause many escorts , if not the most, do love their work and do it because they do want, as my own case, so its not fair to say and treat all escorts as victims because those who love escorting and do it voluntary we are not victims............. However I think with the swedish model escorts will have more safety than without it.

LaBelleThatcher

09-11-12, 11:19

Hi Manolita...all Brock says is true...but I think it will be quite a bit worse than that, as there is every chance landlords will be too frightened to let, or go on letting property to any recognised sex worker, or perhaps even anyone with a robust socio-sex life for fear of being heaviliy prosecuted under the law Ruhama want.

If you read Ruhama's actual submission to the consultation (they tried to keep the full version hidden and only release a much milder and more rational synopsis):
http://sexworkie.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/final-submission-to-oir-comm_jde.pdf

You will see that the gloves are off, there is little, if any pretence at concern or compassion for sex workers, it is ALL about imposing control and additional funding to Turn Off the Red Light orgs so that they can abuse that control.

Ebony Amber

09-11-12, 11:39

Want to stop sex trafficking? tighten the fucking borders! yee dopes!

Fuck the feminists! Its time for male politicans to stand up to the radical feminists and get some balls. Women are pretty crap with politics anyway, its called having a vagina.

Bastards think they can remove the rights of men.

Whilst I am against the Swedish model and disagree with a lot of what Manolia TV says- these lines of your comments show you to be nothing more than an ignorant chauvinist misogynist PRICK.

You think this is about the rights of men and that women shouldn't be involved. People like Sarah Benson are not feminists they are nut bags. It is a lot of feminists we have to thank for our right to work in the sex industry at all.

As for women being crap at Politics that is your view and you are entitled to it. But I am also entitled to tell you I think you are wrong.

LaBelleThatcher

09-11-12, 11:59

Whilst I am against the Swedish model and disagree with a lot of what Manolia TV says- these lines of your comments show you to be nothing more than an ignorant chauvinist misogynist PRICK.

You think this is about the rights of men and that women shouldn't be involved. People like Sarah Benson are not feminists they are nut bags. It is a lot of feminists we have to thank for our right to work in the sex industry at all.

As for women being crap at Politics that is your view and you are entitled to it. But I am also entitled to tell you I think you are wrong.

OOOPS!!!

I was so relieved Brock made all the points I was too tired to make last night about the extended affects of the law I confess I had not read to the bottom, and that was a bit out of line (to say least).

:o

I think there needs to be a huge distinction between "Women in Politics" (no better or worse than men, some brilliant, some absolutely cr*p, most somewhere in the middle) and "Women's politics" - which has no excuse for existing in any society that aspires to gender equality.

milkman

09-11-12, 14:05

Much as i enjoy most of your contributions ,brock, you're waaaaay off the mark re politics/women whether in this coutry or beyond. Most international governments are dominated by men and most in-position governments are reviled by their domestic populace.Sure, you can find plenty of awful female politicians in the last govt (e.g. the three marys) but one of the most impressive performers of the current govt is Joan Burton.To be honest, that i actually replied to your ignorant,misogynist rant gives too much credence to what you've just posted - having written many excellent posts before, i'm sure its just the red mist descending towards the likes of ruhama prompted you write your last few posts

LaBelleThatcher

09-11-12, 14:10

Sarah Benson is not a feminist? oh really? then why does she cite radical feminist research, same tree different branch. Shes also not a nut bag, in fact she comes off as extremely intelligent and knows exactly what shes doing, even if she does not seem to care about sex workers and their clients who want to be left alone.

Blimey Brock! You must have the lowest threshold for nutbags I have ever even heard of so...

Take Sarah Benson, OR Denise Charlton for that matter, out of a context where they have so much stigma and expensive international propaganda working for them and they are very obviously "for the birds". That is a big part of why the idea of "normalisation" gives them the horrors because people would see them for exactly how dysfunctional they are.

APART from which...

I am "old skool" (less of the cracks about Jane Eyre from the peanut gallery IF YOU PLEASE). Feminism is not a "good thing" or a "bad thing" it is an IMPERATIVE thing.

Same as racial equality...you cannot say anyone is "more" or "less" than anyone else on the grounds of race or gender.

But like every form of overdue freedom feminism goes through some really creepy phases and fads (GET A LOAD of *all* the very first world leaders after any kind of UDI, and yes, Mr DeValera I AM talking about you and yer daft ideas about comely maidens dancing at crossroads, as well as every member of the "Doc" family who ever had a stranglehold on Haiti). There is a reason for this...because the easiest way to break through glass walls and ceilings of prejudice is to be a badder, crazier b*stard than the b*stard who built them. (A Taliban feminist is the lady who goes out strapped up with high explosives and a dinner date with the Prophet later, after the first few hundred it gets really hard to explain to young girls why they cannot go to school).

Unfortunately, this has a downside, not least in that it tends to go on FAR TOO LONG after it has served it's purpose and renders everything it has achieved toxic for a couple of generations.

Sooner or later, somebody has to put a stop to that...but *NOT* by saying "feminism is a bad thing"...

You just take the power away from the redundant crazies and give it to saner people instead...and a true feminist shouldn't care whether those people are male or female, and should not regard who they have what type of sex with, in what frame of mind, for what reason as any of their GODDAMN BUSINESS.

:D

Er...HELL-O-O...a standing ovation would work for me about now. ;)

Ebony Amber

09-11-12, 14:20

Right I'm out. This discussion is making me want to bang my head against a wall and I have already used too many profanities.

I've made my points clear.

SexyHotTv

09-11-12, 14:28

[QUOTE=Brock;935878]The numbers of sex workers that advertise in Sweden and Norway is relatively low, a lot of them only do outcalls. Ruhama and TORL want more than just the Swedish model, they want legislation for the Gardai to legally ask mobile phone companies to shut down numbers used for advertising an illegal activity such as advertising sex. They also want naming and shaming, they got that with people who solicit street sex workers.

Is your opinion all you say about my comment and i keep thinking exactly the same, so i not gonna go to discuss anything, but i am just gonna ask where have you got this info about low sex workers advertising in sweden and norway ? it must be because you dont know the advertisment websites for these countries cause i just have checked and for example in oslo there is today 278 female independent escorts in one of the norwian advertising websites, in dublin today there is 286 counting independent and agency girls, and dublin have bigger population than oslo, so in this case as example is the oppossite you said...... does the other info you have related have the same credibility ? i checked profiles and all of them provide both incalls and outcalls..........

milkman

09-11-12, 14:47

The same politican thats a member of labour party, part of the core of TORL members, the same political party that wants to criminalise people like you for seeing sex workers.

Most politicians (male and female) are supporting the TORL poroposal - in fact ,SF are the only party that believe that legislation is the way to go ( a few other notables Bill Tormey,Mary White and Mick wallace) - So should that mean that SF are now the only realistic party that sex customers should vote for ,simply ,because of their view on the sex industry?Of course not.
Its frankly quite ridiculous to suggest that a particular minister's particular view on the sex industry should be the sole criteria as to whether they are good / bad at their ministry.Yet that's what you are doing.Most politicians (both male and female) are influenced/lobbied by the likes of ruhama et al and so its no surprise that most take the simplistic ,populist view that prohibition will help .Until,there is an organised vocal lobby group to provide the alternative argument that looks for invites on radio shows ,tv debates etc to contradict the mantra from the TORL brigade then legalisation is difficult to sell to the man on the street.

Whatever floats your boat. You support the same politicans that want to remove your human rights.
Which means as a sex purchaser, i can now only vote for my local SF candidate as his party are the only ones that co-incide with my views on prostitution ,irrespective of their policies on all sorts of other issues???

[QUOTE=Brock;936149]Once women get power in politics, the first thing they do is bring up the issue of prostitution, as in Norway and Sweden where half the government are female. Women get power in politics in Ireland? what do they do? they promote that all prostitution is bad. So predictable and whats worse is that Ruhama plays on those factors.

Julia Gillard ?

Can't believe you're willing to condense a female's political contribution (good or bad) simply into 'she's for or against prostitution' and that her stance on such in the sole criteria that politics and vaginas just don't mix.
You remind me of :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

Rachel Divine

09-11-12, 15:31

Everyone makes a valid point on this thread, lets keep it civil please, it is an interesting topic.

Manolita it is right, like it or not. Swedish model works the way escorts have lot of work in Sweden.
Brock brings good arguments , Ireland it is not Sweden and Ruhama is asking for more than a simple criminalization of clients, they want to go much further..

Every country is different, the mentality it is different as well. Lets focus in Ireland please.

milkman

09-11-12, 16:24

Maybe so, but can really prove that, or do you just rely on whatever the nuns tell you? Fianna Fail and Labour have stated they support criminalisation of clients, however Mary White (fianna fail member) voted against the rushing of the proposal and called for more debate, yet she was threatened of getting the party whip.

The reason i entered this thread was to contradict your ridiculous assertion that 'politics and vaginas don't mix' - yet you've expounded on the mary white position which was at least quering her party's direct criminalisation position.And yet you say that political women are simply incapable of balanced opinion on the issue of the sex trade?Whatever about White's general contribution to politics the fact that she was willing to engage in a balanced way debunks your 19th century generalisation about political women.

For what its worth :

Bill Tormey : http://www.billtormey.ie/?s=sex+industry
To criticise Tormey for stating his position on his website but hasn't said so on tv / radio being insufficient is a ridiculous assertion - the man has it written on his own website that he favours eilis wards position .What more do you want from him on the issue : naked protests outside sex shops? btw, he's regularly a contributor on marc coleman's show on newstalk - i've no doubt if you want him to clarify his position on radio,just send a n email to the program and he'll speak up .Agree or disagree, he does have steadfast positions on issues.

Re SF : I'm sure i've read online about the Shinners pro - regulation and legalisation of brothels but can't find anything of same online.Found an article from MEP Therese Ruane in favour of the Swedish model which if in fact is political party's actual policy means that by your reckoning, no sex purchaser should vote for any political party irrespective of any policy they advocate because they're all just puppets to the TORL brigade.I've no doubt there are plenty tds in all parties that would prefer an open,mature debate in a whole host of various issues - the sex industry however is waaaay down the line in terms of importance when it comes a potential divisive ,in-party debate so for now its an awful lot easier for political expediency to take the zero -tolerance,populist view .

LaBelleThatcher

09-11-12, 16:42

Manolita it is right, like it or not. Swedish model works the way escorts have lot of work in Sweden.

Dunno, Pye and Louise Perrson told a very different story...

But yes, let's keep it civil! :)

Rachel Divine

09-11-12, 16:58

Dunno, Pye and Louise Perrson told a very different story...

But yes, let's keep it civil! :)

You get me wrong. I shall explain.
The conditions are bad. The law is crazy. Doesnt mean is no work whatsoever.
Outcalls can work fine for example.

Now, in Ireland would be a different story, thats my point.

How many ladies do outcalls to clients they do not know? I for one, I dont ...
Irish men are easily scared and it is true. Police at the door and they want to jump from the 5th floor,I am not joking and with a Swedish model they will stab themselves in my kitchen or start crying...
At the moment it is hard to rent an apartment, think it changed after the primetime. Now, with that law will be impossible if landlords are criminalized ...
From indoors it moved to outdoors, can work fine in Sweden , I wonder how many escorts will do it in Ireland ... hmm...

LaBelleThatcher

09-11-12, 17:31

You get me wrong. I shall explain.
The conditions are bad. The law is crazy. Doesnt mean is no work whatsoever.
Outcalls can work fine for example.

Now, in Ireland would be a different story, thats my point.

How many ladies do outcalls to clients they do not know? I for one, I dont ...
Irish men are easily scared and it is true. Police at the door and they want to jump from the 5th floor,I am not joking and with a Swedish model they will stab themselves in my kitchen or start crying...
At the moment it is hard to rent an apartment, think it changed after the primetime. Now, with that law will be impossible if landlords are criminalized ...
From indoors it moved to outdoors, can work fine in Sweden , I wonder how many escorts will do it in Ireland ... hmm...

I knew you must have a practical basis for what you were saying Rachel. :)

Rachel Divine

09-11-12, 17:52

LaBelleThatcher

09-11-12, 18:49

milkman

09-11-12, 18:58

FAO Brock :
Close to half the governments of Sweden and Norway are female, they are intolerant towards prostitution, probably because they hate the idea that a prostitute can have a higher salary than them.
Legislative powers in america are held overwhelming by MEN - yet 49 out of 50 states list prostitution as an illegal act.So why do you think in the cases of Norway & Sweden that the pro-criminalistion political view is exclusively a FEMALE mentality?

Labour womens opinion on the sex trade is balanced?
Do you think Labour MENs opinion on the sex trade is balanced? Can you list me a few labour men who have a 'balanced' view to the sex industry please?You repeatedly seem to let the male politicians get a free pass when it comes to these issues.Remember, political parties are populated heavily in the male's favour.

She(Mary White) was the minority female presence in the seanad that was against rushed proposals of criminalising clients, she also said she does not condone prostitution. Yet you think she is some sort of messiah? The majority of female politicans there were pro - criminalisation of the sex trade and especially the criminalisation of sex workers clients.
Mary White was the minority FEMALE AND MALE presence in the seanad etc ETC.... -- how many MALE speakers in the seanad spoke in favour of her contribution?So why not castigate the men as well as the women.After all,they're in the majority.
I don't actually know anything enough about Mary White's political record to suggest that she's any messiah - she's just my example on this thread to debunk your ludicrous assertion that 'politics and vaginas don't mix' - here was a woman (yes, an actual woman!!) who had enough independent thinking to swim against the tide of her party's pro-criminalisation mantra at risk of party censure - something which you stated that women in politics just were not capable of. Wonder did Norris make any such statements in light of his libertarian views?

Don't get mad when you will find its mostly female politicans that want to remove your human rights, female politicans are the most vocal on the issue at least in Ireland anyway.
My apathy to most politicians and their words make it near impossible for me to get mad at anything they say or do in most issues but , unlike you , i certainly won't be preserving any agitation i do have solely for the female politicians.

Since he is a politican, why did he not speak out against Ruhama and TORL at the press conference if hes so great?
If all these wimmin politicians are so evil as you allude , then why didn't THEY speak out FOR Ruhama and TORL at the press conference???
I suspect the answer to both,is that they weren't invited or the whole prostitution issue is well down their political priorties.Seems like the logical answer to me.

Half Man and Half Dildo

09-11-12, 19:54

Radical feminists are not worthy of my semen.

SexyHotTv

09-11-12, 20:31

Brock,
""The more risky clients would be all thats left, which increases potential danger for the sex workers of course. The safer more decent clients would reduce the times they visit sex workers or just stop visiting them altogether ""
I agree , of course.
Yet , that doesnt mean there is no work in Sweden.. I must do a trip to that country and see it for myself, talk to clients how they feel about it..

Any contact for Sweden, anyone?!

You gonna do pretty well hon, try to do a tour helsinki - stockholm - oslo or oslo - stockholm - helsinki. Charming clients and very generous! Some of them dont speak English thought!

Any tip you fancy to know feel free to pm.

The Equalizer

09-11-12, 21:09

Interesting findings from TORL's own site (FAQ Section).

What They Say (Skewed/Fabricated)
The Facts (Proven)

Prostitution in not just about sex. It is about exploitation, violence and abuse. More than half of UK women in prostitution have been raped and/or seriously sexually assaulted at the hands of pimps and punters; up to 95% of women in street prostitution are problematic drug users; and 68% of women in street prostitution meet the criteria for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
This is an argument put forward to depict all clients of sex workers as depraved. In a number of cases where successful convictions were brought against pimps, evidence put forward by clients was a key factor in securing these convictions. This has been verified and confirmed by Police (including An Garda Siochana) in reputable newspapers and on news broadcasts which reported on these cases.

Legalization and total decriminalization of prostitution gives a green light to pimps and traffickers making it easier for them to operate.
Legalization (of prostitution) would afford sex workers/escorts greater Police/Garda protection than they currently have. For instance (in a scenario where prostitution were legalized/totally decriminalized), if some thug (such as a pimp) were to demand money "for protection" from a sex worker, she would be fully entitled to report said lowlife to the Police/Gardai and have them dealt with appropriately. Currently, it is not so straightforward for escorts.

Prostitution can never truly exist underground.
Yes it could. And then it would truly become an industry dominated by scum such as pimps and/or human traffickers. Several illegal trades (such as drugs and bare knuckle/unlicensed boxing) not only exist underground, but they thrive and are run by individuals with very little regard for human life.

Rachel Divine

09-11-12, 21:21

Clients are not criminalised in Helsinki as in Sweden, Noway and Iceland.

Why do you think clients should purchase a service from escorts if its illegal?

If you don't look after your customers, then don't expect your customers to look after yee especially in Ireland if they are named and shamed.

You went to Norway and Sweden and got clients? do they have media naming and shaming clients? no they do not!
As I said , in Ireland wouldnt be only Swedish model would be much more..

Rachel Divine

09-11-12, 21:37

Manolita, makes out it would be the exact same. Which is hard to believe, when Ruhama would use the Swedish model to lobby for more weapons, i.e. name and shaming and so on.

Don't forget that clients who solicit street sex workers are named and shamed.

What makes people think that clients of indoor sex workers won't be named and shamed? Ruhama push for it, and they would have it from the Swedish model.
I am aware of that and I am saying it will be different in Ireland due Ruhama and the ones who follow them..

The Equalizer

13-11-12, 20:48

What the Swedish Model (whereby only the purchaser of sexual services is criminalized) has achieved:

Sweden has the highest rate of rape in Europe.
I highlighted a number of weeks ago that men who visit escorts are not going to nightclubs and "spiking unsuspecting girls drinks so that they can rape them". In Sweden however, visiting an escort is not an option for alot of men (partly out of fear of arrest). As a result, the number of rapes and sexual assaults has increased.

AIDS cases in Sweden have dramatically increased since the introduction of the aforementioned Legislation.
This is mainly due to the fact that, as a result of decent men being reluctant to visit sex workers (due to fear of the repercussions which would arise were the aforementioned legislation enacted upon them), sex workers have been forced to accept "undesirable" clients (such as violent criminals) who may be carrying diseases (such as AIDS, HIV etc) and insist on not using protection, promoting the spread of said diseases.

As recently as June 2011, Sweden was raked as a "Tier 1" Human Trafficking Destination.
According to the report (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/4e12ee45c.html), Sweden is a "destination, source, and to a lesser extent, a transit country for women and children subjected to sex trafficking". The same report also highlighted that 12% of Swedish girls and 4% of Swedish boys in state-run youth care homes sold sex for drugs or money. (All the things which this legislation supposedly serves to eradicate).

Half Man and Half Dildo

13-11-12, 21:07

Justice Committee delegation to visit Finland and Sweden: (http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/mediazone/pressreleases/name-13480-en.html)

They're off again on another visit to Sweden and Finland, and before you ask, No, they are not meeting any sex workers this time around either.

Justice Committee delegation to visit Finland and Sweden

A delegation from the Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality will visit Finland and Sweden this week as part of the reviews it is carrying out on penal reform and prostitution legislation.

The Joint committee recently established a sub-Committee on Penal Reform and has conducted hearings from interested groups/individuals to assist it in its analysis of the recommendations of the Thornton Hall Project Review Group in respect of non-custodial alternatives to imprisonment.

On Tuesday, 13th November, the delegation will be in Helsinki, Finland to meet with the Legal Affairs Committee, experts from Ministry of Justice and from Criminal Sanctions Agency to discuss the penal system in operation in Finland.

As well as receiving presentations on the Finnish penal system, the delegation will visit Suomenlinna Island Open Prison where the main focus will be on preparation of prisoners for release.

Committee Chairman David Stanton, TD, said: “Finland’s penal system is regarded as a model of best practice. As we review our own penal reform system, it is both timely and opportune to view at first hand the Finnish model and meet those involved in its administration. It is important that we examine the experience from other jurisdictions and consider potential models for penal reform and alternative strategies such as ‘earned temporary release’; release under community supervision; parole reform and enhanced remission.”

On Wednesday, 14th November, the delegation will be in Sweden to meet with officials and politicians to discuss its legislation on prostitution. In Stockholm, the delegation will receive an overview from officials at the Ministry for Justice of the Swedish legislation prohibiting purchases of sexual services. It will also have meetings with Detective Inspector Kajsa Wahlberg, National Rapporteur on Trafficking in Human Beings, Patrik Cederlöf, National Coordinator against Prostitution and Human Trafficking for Sexual Exploitation, Chief Prosecutor Lise Tamm of the Stockholm Trafficking Policing Unit and Members of the Swedish Parliament’s Committee for Justice Affairs at the Riksdag

Deputy Stanton said: “Again, Sweden’s prostitution legislation is held up as model of best practice and an example of enlightened law-making. The criminalisation of the purchase of sexual services rather than the sale of sexual services was regarded as unique when the Swedish legislation was first passed. As legislators and members of the committee responsible for reviewing Ireland’s prostitution legislation, it is important to meet with fellow parliamentarians in another jurisdiction to discuss their experiences of the drafting and implementing of this ground-breaking legislation, while it is also important to meet with those responsible for policing the legislation to discuss how it works in reality.”

For further information please contact:

Ciaran Brennan,
Houses of the Oireachtas,
Communications Unit,
Leinster House,
Dublin 2

P: +3531 618 3903
M: 086-0496518
F: +3531 618 4551

Committee Membership

Deputies:

Niall Collins, Michael Creed, Alan Farrell, Anne Ferris (Vice-Chairman), Seán Kenny, Pádraig MacLochlainn, Finian McGrath, John Paul Phelan and David Stanton (Chairman).

Senators:

Ivana Bacik, Paul Bradford, Martin Conway, Rónán Mullen, Denis O’Donovan and Katherine Zappone.

The excerpt below is from SexWork.ie's twitter feed:

Sen.KatherineZappone ‏@SenatorKZappone

Leaving now, with an open mind, to investigate Finnish renal reform and Swedish legislative approach to prostitution. #Annawas14

There's not much point in having an open mind, senator, if you're only hearing one side of the argument.

Morpheus

13-11-12, 23:52

Oh this is very depressing!!!:mad:

After all that they are going to Sweden again??????

To my knowledge clients aren't criminalized in Finland but I could be wrong. Either way you'd think they would have had enough of scandinavia!!! Why not Britain next door? or France or Germany?

And if they were any way interested in a semi good model - why aren't they visiting New Zealand, where they might actually get to talk to escorts and their powerful sex workers union lobby?

This just depresses me!! Zapone and Bakcik!! Why can't there be someone on the committee appointed by the minister with a bit of common sense? Like David Norris for instance? Or Senator Mary White?

It sounds to me like the consultation process is all a sham with the decisions already having been made. Were they not listening when escorts stood up and spoke at the confrence??

It will be interesting to see if they bring unilateral criminalization against clients whether it would stand up when a test case takes them to court for breach of one's constitutional rights!

Morpheus

14-11-12, 00:03

I am just livid!!:angryfire: Afterall the holes that have been pointed out in the Swedish model, they still consider it to be the model of best practice!!!!!!!!

Deputy Stanton said: “Again, Sweden’s prostitution legislation is held up as model of best practice and an example of enlightened law-making. The criminalisation of the purchase of sexual services rather than the sale of sexual services was regarded as unique when the Swedish legislation was first passed. As legislators and members of the committee responsible for reviewing Ireland’s prostitution legislation, it is important to meet with fellow parliamentarians in another jurisdiction to discuss their experiences of the drafting and implementing of this ground-breaking legislation, while it is also important to meet with those responsible for policing the legislation to discuss how it works in reality.”

An example of enlightened law making???? My arse!!!!! And this coming from the leader of the committee! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

LaBelleThatcher

14-11-12, 00:12

Just remember Morpheus, the Justice Committee only get to make recommendations, they do not draft the law.

Morpheus

14-11-12, 00:20

Just remember Morpheus, the Justice Committee only get to make recommendations, they do not draft the law.

Thank goodness for that Labelle. I hope there are plenty of punter politicians who vote against any proposal that brings added criminalization.

However, I am really depressed at the attitude of the committee. The consultation guide document from the ministry of justice was so balanced, it gave me reason to hope. Then after hearing how well the conference went, my optimism increased even further.

But to hear that the committee is going back to Sweden again, and blantantly stating that Sweden has the model that's considered best practice, is a real kick in the teeth. And they are only going to speak to the hardcore idiots who pushed this model through in the first place and who would be too embarrassed to admit that it is a load of balls!!

I wish I had your resilience Labelle. Anyway I'm off to bed. A good nights rest may just alleviate my anger and depression.

LaBelleThatcher

14-11-12, 02:07

It is only the model considered "best practice" by the committee that invalidates it's own role with undue bias anyway.

Believe me, it has all been making me very, VERY angry for decades, all these people capitalising on reinventing our reality to suit their own ends...then adding insult to injury by claiming they are "helping", which nobody asked, or wanted, them to do for real, let alone as an ironical pretence.

TORL have lately taken up carrying on like the cheapest, tackiest, kind of "travelling salvation show" complete with a phoney penitent to "testify" on command.

...god alone knows how anyone buys in to it.

...and meanwhile, waiting in the wings are a whole crop or people who's lives will fall through the cracks and cease to be viable after the next budget, who MAY JUST be able to use sex work to *HELP THEMSELVES* get past it. It's like they are chopped liver, they do not matter, they are only as good as they are an excuse for extra funding for NGO salaries and junkets that will not do ONE SINGLE THING to help them at all.

So many people - and not an operational conscience between them.

UKHeather

14-11-12, 02:22

Thank goodness for that Labelle. I hope there are plenty of punter politicians who vote against any proposal that brings added criminalization.

I don't like the idea of this. Male politicians voting because they are punters? Those are selfish reasons. Votes should be cast upon clear measured and rational thinking.
That said, I am sure some female politicians give their vote no more thought than we are all dirty bitches who might fuck their men :)
I am convinced that some people consider prostitutes to be vermin that need to be eradicated, much like rats and pigeons!

LaBelleThatcher

14-11-12, 03:03

I don't like the idea of this. Male politicians voting because they are punters? Those are selfish reasons. Votes should be cast upon clear measured and rational thinking.
That said, I am sure some female politicians give their vote no more thought than we are all dirty bitches who might fuck their men :)
I am convinced that some people consider prostitutes to be vermin that need to be eradicated, much like rats and pigeons!

They did, quite openly, in 1993. That was the deal then, making them see sex workers as people who *NEEDED THE F*CKING MONEY" for ordinary, everyday, worthwhile things that (for whatever reason) they had no other way to get...

In those days Ruhama were hellbent on proving we were all "acting out" childhood sexual abuse...and the money was incidental (I KID YOU NOT!).

It is as if they are determined to hide the truth, that sex workers are honest, enterprising people taking care of their own lives and problems in the best way they can.

UKHeather

14-11-12, 10:20

They did, quite openly, in 1993. That was the deal then, making them see sex workers as people who *NEEDED THE F*CKING MONEY" for ordinary, everyday, worthwhile things that (for whatever reason) they had no other way to get...

In those days Ruhama were hellbent on proving we were all "acting out" childhood sexual abuse...and the money was incidental (I KID YOU NOT!).

It is as if they are determined to hide the truth, that sex workers are honest, enterprising people taking care of their own lives and problems in the best way they can.
I was never sexually abused as a child. I guess if you tout out enough possible 'reasons' for women choosing to be in sex work, one of those reasons is going to apply to most of us. I was a child of the three day working week and the powercuts. Yes, that must be it, the reason for my dysfunction.
I have a close escort friend who finds it incredulous that some clients also assume this. She has been asked many times by clients 'What happened in her childhood that she is now working in the sex industry!!'

LaBelleThatcher

14-11-12, 11:23

I was never sexually abused as a child.

Nothing unusual about that Heather, as even Ruhama/WHP's OWN research (all up on http://www.sexwork.ie where nobody can - OOOPS! - accidentally lose it for ever) showed, in 1994 and 1995, the amount of sex workers who were sexually abused as children was just, slightly above the usual "1 in 4" figure, and that slight increase was easily accounted for by the fact that sex workers were likely to have a better understanding of sexual abuse and/or be more willing to talk about it...but they didn't let that stop them...I guess the rest of us were in the same deep denial as we are now about all those pimps and traffickers? ;)

Of course, if you factor in crisis and survival sex workers, who are, pretty obviously, less likely to come from supportive families than most people, which, in turn, means they are more likely to have suffered sexual abuse than most people (whether within the family, or in care), which, to me, is a FAR more urgent issue, any statistician will tell you the picure suddenly turn ON IT'S HEAD and suggests that *less* sex workers have been abused than the national average, at least within the context of the specific Irish demographic.

Of course, as all forms os common sense are banned from analysis of everything to do with sex work, nobody even bothers to consider that might be because victims of childhood sexual abuse often have serious problems with being touched...that might make sex work too much of an ordeal to face.

I guess if you tout out enough possible 'reasons' for women choosing to be in sex work, one of those reasons is going to apply to most of us. I was a child of the three day working week and the powercuts. Yes, that must be it, the reason for my dysfunction.

YOU REMEMBER THAT??? Was that before, or AFTER WWII? :p

Seriously, I have shedloads of dysfunction, for an equal number of reasons...but none of that made me a sex worker, what made me a sex worker was that there was still enough of me functional to respond to ALL THAT DYSFUNCTION by wanting to get back up, stand on my own two feet and start fighting back to survive.

I would like to say that it was also because I have such a high IQ that I could clearly see that all the state provisions and NGOs funded to help me were as good as bogus and would do more harm than good if they did anything at all, as I can today, but I was a wee bit "eyes wide shut" and harmless in those days, so I ACTUALLY CHECKED first... :(

I have a close escort friend who finds it incredulous that some clients also assume this. She has been asked many times by clients 'What happened in her childhood that she is now working in the sex industry!!'

Simple answer, she wasn't born into a family rich beyond the dreams of avarice... :D

Seriously, I am regularly horrified by the intrusive, uninformed speculation and often outright propaganda touted around about sex workers...ALL of it (true or fabricated) is NONE OF ANYBODY'S BUSINESS...unless sex workers unite and request some kind of assistance from society with it...

No-one would DREAM of poking around in the personal lives of, say, public service workers...who DO get paid direct by the state.

All that needs to be said is:

Sex workers need their income...some of them absolutely desperately...as to the reasons why, read a few morning papers then TAKE A WILD GUESS. :eek:

Jack in the Box

14-11-12, 16:29

Morpheus- you are not alone in being very angry at Deputy Stanton's fawning and biased admiration for Sweden's human right abusing laws on sex work. All these clowns on the committee are like a referee who only awards against one team.

Some TD's and Senators like, Deputy Joan Collins, Senator Mary White, Senator David Norris for instance are sound and have done good things for us. There are other TD's and Senators that certainly wouldn't be missed if they lost their seats.

Would it be a good idea to do up a template small letter of protest to Stanton and the other committee members and then get loads of people to email it to them? Pull him up on the biased comments he made about how great Swedish laws were.

It wouldn't take long to email a few committee members and if they were thin skinned they might sit up and notice if they got a 1000 emails or so into their inbox.

LaBelleThatcher

14-11-12, 19:10

Would it be a good idea to do up a template small letter of protest to Stanton and the other committee members and then get loads of people to email it to them?

NO TEMPLATES!!!

Templates just piss people off.(TORL are too thick to realise this, we, however, are not)

David Stanton is a pleasant, conventional, rather ingenuous man. His manner is gentle and a little gauche, he is a human being well capable of compassion and understanding so set Turn Off the Red Light an example and TREAT him as one.

I promise you he hasn't got the first clue how wrong he is or why. he has never learned those things. So write to him and explain, as one human being to another...even if it is only a couple of lines.

Jack in the Box

15-11-12, 01:41

NO TEMPLATES!!!

Templates just piss people off.(TORL are too thick to realise this, we, however, are not)

David Stanton is a pleasant, conventional, rather ingenuous man. His manner is gentle and a little gauche, he is a human being well capable of compassion and understanding so set Turn Off the Red Light an example and TREAT him as one.

I promise you he hasn't got the first clue how wrong he is or why. he has never learned those things. So write to him and explain, as one human being to another...even if it is only a couple of lines.

It would be no harm to write diplomatically to David Stanton then to point out that he shouldn't be afraid to look at places like New Zealand and to say no to the carry on in Sweden. Ivana Balick would be more of a challenge as she seems to think that what goes on in Sweden is the be all and end all. So much for a fair person assessing sex work.