View Full Version : Our struggle in Scotland
The consultation to criminalise the purchase of sex in Scotland is open until December 18th.
I have written a blog here (https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/entries/2107-Let-s-get-to-WORK) with some useful template letters you can use if you wish.
Please give us your support as every voice counts. :)
LaBelleThatcher
20-10-12, 11:17
My submission has been acknowledged and accepted already Laura.
Brilliant stuff, thank you. :)
nautural bbw
21-10-12, 13:22
we all need to stand up and fight
LaBelleThatcher
21-10-12, 14:40
The truth is, regardless of the stigma, until we do the very best we can (without actually ruining our own lives) to stand up, look the world in the eye, proudly, and say:
"Feck you...*I* have rights too...*I* am an adult...*I* am intelligent...*I* can think for myself and *I* am here to tell you that you haven't got the first clue what you are talking about"
Nobody will ever really see and respect us as people.
The truth is, regardless of the stigma, until we do the very best we can (without actually ruining our own lives) to stand up, look the world in the eye, proudly, and say:
"Feck you...*I* have rights too...*I* am an adult...*I* am intelligent...*I* can think for myself and *I* am here to tell you that you haven't got the first clue what you are talking about"
Nobody will ever really see and respect us as people.
Love your "Pye-Jakobssen" -ite mentality LBT - whilst i enjoy most people's take on the whole sex-for-sale debate, i really enjoy your pieces as excellent reads with more than a mere passing reference to the detrimental effect the industry genuinely has on some people.Keep up the good work!
LaBelleThatcher
21-10-12, 16:49
Love your "Pye-Jakobssen" -ite mentality LBT - whilst i enjoy most people's take on the whole sex-for-sale debate, i really enjoy your pieces as excellent reads with more than a mere passing reference to the detrimental effect the industry genuinely has on some people.Keep up the good work!
I have met Pye now...she is LOVELY :)
So this is BRILLIANT compliment.
the traveller
22-10-12, 16:18
Hi Laura, any chance of a link to the " 8 questions ". I did a search but couldn't find them.
Just want to know where the Labour MSP is coming from. Thanks.
Here's a link to the consultation and my apologies for the delay in coming back to you. :)
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/54314.aspx
the traveller
25-10-12, 09:00
Here's a link to the consultation and my apologies for the delay in coming back to you. :)
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/54314.aspx
Thanks Laura for the link. I've had a quick read through and to me the Labour MSP for the Highlands and Islands does not want a consultation, what she wants is a confirmation of her preconceived ideas. At least here we had a fair and balanced discussion document from the Dept. of Justice.
This consultation does not seek views on the decriminalisation of those
involved in prostitution. I have concluded that this course of action is not one I
wish to advocate. You are welcome to provide comment on this aspect
although I have a clear policy approach and the purpose of the consultation is
to assist me in refining and developing my policy.
Jack in the Box
04-11-12, 21:01
The consultation to criminalise the purchase of sex in Scotland is open until December 18th.
I have written a blog here (https://www.escort-ireland.com/boards/entries/2107-Let-s-get-to-WORK) with some useful template letters you can use if you wish.
Please give us your support as every voice counts. :)
Well said Laura Lee. I'm 100% behind you. There should be as many submissions as possible to this consultation. Tell Rhoda Grant what we think of her ideas. This is a case where we need to muster up as much people power as possible. Don't let the disease of criminalising the clients of sex workers spread anywhere.
the traveller
04-11-12, 22:54
May I suggest that a copy of the submissions be sent to the clerk of the justice committee Mr Peter McGrath whose e-mail is
justice.committee@scottish.parliament.uk. as, to be honest, I wouldn't trust Ms Grant to include any voices that disagree with her stated position in any document that she produces. Hopefully I'm wrong, but let's not leave anything to chance. Still working on my submission but will get it in on time. And the closing date is the 14th Dec not the 18th
Thanks for your support all, it is so much appreciated.
Sorry for the mix up re dates too, I really am chasing my tail at the moment.
Here is my blog on when I met Godman and Grant - http://www.escort-scotland.com/boards/entries/507-Conference-against-Human-Trafficking-why-YOU-should-be-very-angry
The truth is, regardless of the stigma, until we do the very best we can (without actually ruining our own lives) to stand up, look the world in the eye, proudly, and say:
"Feck you...*I* have rights too...*I* am an adult...*I* am intelligent...*I* can think for myself and *I* am here to tell you that you haven't got the first clue what you are talking about"
Nobody will ever really see and respect us as people.
Well done and well said,
I too am a consenting adult who makes choices,
Keep up the good work.
Respect the ESCORTS,
Jack in the Box
25-11-12, 22:08
We need to keep our eye on Scotland. Rain on Grant's parade as well as on Charlton's and Benson's parade in this country.
Jack in the Box
04-12-12, 19:13
Reading Rhoda Grant’s consultation will make you very annoyed so make sure that you get in a submission by December 14th.
The good news is that Denmark decided to reject Sweden’s rubbish legislation on sex work as they decided that it would be a waste of resources to police the bedrooms of consenting adults. So keep fighting these septic law proposals no matter where they are.
She is trying to make out that a large amount of clients have a tolerance for rape.
So clients out there please tell her your belief that rape is inexcusable end of story.
She is also trying to make out that most sex workers have experienced violence in their profession or that a huge proportion of them have been raped and that most of them started as children.
So escorts out there please do not let her get away with saying things that are untrue.
Jack in the Box
04-12-12, 19:14
Link to help in the submission:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated
http://www.thelocal.no/page/view/rip-up-prostitution-law-says-top-oslo-politician#.UL4wQORg-So
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/01/goran-lindberg-sweden-crime-palme
http://www.thelocal.se/19102/20090427/#.UL4wfeRg-So
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/swedens-empire-of-governance-feminism/
http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm
http://www.sexworkersallianceireland.org/legalissues.html#anchor
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/liam-clarke/we-cant-abandon-girls-to-mercy-of-the-underworld-16169164.html
http://www.salon.com/2012/11/28/study_porn_stars_arent_damaged/
Jack in the Box
09-12-12, 17:22
The deadline is next Friday 14th December so please send in a submission before then. Rhoda Grant predecessor Trish Godman failed in her bid to criminalise the clients of sex workers thankfully and she stood down at a previous election but it was a close call so it is very important that as many as possible get a submission.
Denmark threw out proposals to crimalise the clients of sex workers which is excellent news. If a place like Scotland which is physically and culturally close to Ireland abandons criminalisation it will be a hammer blow to the morale of the TOTRL crowd. So please get a submission in!
I must confess to being very lax with regard to the submission for Soctland. I had put in a lot of effort into the submssion for Ireland, but I've haven't kept my eye on the ball with regard to the negative legislation change proposals in our neighbouring countries.
I've just read the proposal document by MP Rhoda Grant, who is obviously a kindred sister of our very own Ruhama and the TORL.
I am quite shocked that the submission needs to be sent to her??????:mad: It is already doomed by bias!!! How can she be the arbitrator of submisisons when she has already stated her stance - which is to bring in the criminalization of clients regardless! And with regards to anonymous submissions - she says she will decide whether you've given a good enough reason or not to make an anonymous submission???
I am stunned to admit that our own process here in Ireland seemed far more systematic and fair (regardless of what the outcome will be).
She only lists 8 questions to answer (unlike out Dept of Justice document - which had multiple question suggestions). And look at the bias in her questions!!!
Q5.What do you think the appropriate penalty should be for the offence? Please provide reasons for your answer.
Q6. How should a new offence provision be enforced? Are there any techniques which might be used or obstacles which might need to be overcome?
We do need to make submissions in response to her document, but I am saddend to see that process appears to be biased from the start.
Bloody hell!! The reading of this document gets from bad to worse!! This women Rhona Grant is truly mad!!
Definition of sexual activity
81. Under section 19 (interpretation) of the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2005 "sexual activity" is defined as an activity "that a reasonable person would, in all the circumstances, consider to be sexualA reasonableness test is used in many Acts and is a widely recognised proposition. This avoids the potential problems which come with having to specify every type of sexual activity.
82. I intend to pursue this approach as it would mean that the offence would not be limited to sexual intercourse or oral sex but could potentially include a wider variety of sexual activity. It would be for law enforcement agencies (and ultimately, the courts) to decide whether a reasonable person would conclude that an activity is of a sexual nature.
Soon she'll want to make even looking at a women a sexual offence!!! The defintion of what a reasonable person would think is sexual - is absolute nonsense!! In countries such as Saudi Arabia - it's considered offensive for a woman to wear high heels because it's deemed sexual!! Clearly people have different ideas on this matter , so there is no such thing as "what a reasonable person would think". I don't think Rhona Grant is reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.:mad:
the traveller
11-12-12, 07:15
I am quite shocked that the submission needs to be sent to her
she says she will decide whether you've given a good enough reason or not to make an anonymous submission???
I received a mail stating "I have noted that you have specified anonymity in your submission. I will make sure that your submission is treated as such with the appropriate procedures. Your response will be published but your name and private information (such as email address) will be redacted"
In my submission I stated I thought she had her mind decided already, and that I saw this not only a civil rights issue but also a class struggle with privileged middle class well paid woman telling working class ladies what they can and can not do to earn a good living. So, even though I disagreed with herself she has said it will be published.
But just to make sure I sent the clerk of the committee a copy. Belt and braces!
I received a mail stating "I have noted that you have specified anonymity in your submission. I will make sure that your submission is treated as such with the appropriate procedures. Your response will be published but your name and private information (such as email address) will be redacted"
In my submission I stated I thought she had her mind decided already, and that I saw this not only a civil rights issue but also a class struggle with privileged middle class well paid woman telling working class ladies what they can and can not do to earn a good living. So, even though I disagreed with herself she has said it will be published.
But just to make sure I sent the clerk of the committee a copy. Belt and braces!
I didn't realiee there was a clerk to the committee Traveller? Could you post the link/ address for any of us interested in sending a copy of our submissions to both.
the traveller
11-12-12, 09:37
I didn't realiee there was a clerk to the committee Traveller? Could you post the link/ address for any of us interested in sending a copy of our submissions to both.
Here's a copy of the post on the previous page.
May I suggest that a copy of the submissions be sent to the clerk of the justice committee Mr Peter McGrath whose e-mail is
justice.committee@scottish.parliament.uk. as, to be honest, I wouldn't trust Ms Grant to include any voices that disagree with her stated position in any document that she produces. Hopefully I'm wrong, but let's not leave anything to chance. Still working on my submission but will get it in on time
Jack in the Box
12-12-12, 16:58
Don’t let Grant away with completely twisting the facts:
The following information from a sex worker organisation should be of some help:
Most sex workers start in the industry as children
http://www.women.it/cyberarchive/files/melrose.htm is Rhoda’s own source. However Professor Melrose’s research actually states (in this document):
‘The data on which I am drawing in this paper was generated by in-depth interviews with forty-six women, all of whom had become involved in prostitution before they were 18. At the time of the interviews, 32 were still involved in prostitution. Approximately three-quarters of those interviewed were street-working prostitutes.’
So – Prof Melrose only interviewed sex workers who had become involved before age 18. Around 75% were street sex workers.
However, Rhoda extrapolates this into: ‘For example 75% of women in prostitution in the UK became involved when they were children’ (p.6) – which is very different to the reports actual findings and a rather large leap!
Regarding the rape myths about men who purchase sex:
You might find this document useful from our own website – which is an academic challenge to ‘Challenging Men’s Demand’ and specifically critiques the reports assertions about men who purchase sex.
http://scot-pep.org.uk/sites/default/files/download-files/a_commentary_on_challenging_mens_demand_for_prostitution_in_scotland.pdf
Page 3 particularly states:
‘misrepresentation and distortion of the report’s own findings. The report found that 22% made associations between sex workers and sexual violence, the majority of men interviewed did not make these links and did not hold the view that sex workers deserve sexual violence’
On trafficking / decriminalisation:
Re Rhoda’s footnote no.49 – Cho et al – she is in fact quite selective in the quotes she uses from the source document as the authors actually qualify their findings and place caveats on their own findings.
She does not include a link to the document itself but you can find it here:
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf
Their caveats include (page 10 under ‘conclusions’)
‘Our central finding, i.e., that countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger reported incidence of trafficking inflows, is therefore best regarded as being based on the most reliable existing data, but needs to be subjected to future scrutiny’
Furthermore, the authors also go on to caution against using their research to argue for criminalisation as that would miss the potential benefits of ‘legalisation’.”
Jack in the Box
16-12-12, 16:17
Fair play to everybody who sent in a submission. We need to fight the anti sex work crowd no matter where they surface. Hopefully they will get the message.